Holly F...ng Branson!!!!!!!

[Bearsixty7]

I'm a design engineer, have been for 30+ years. So maybe I'm quicker than most to blame the engineer when I see a failure, since I see so much bad design in my line of work, that could have easily prevented many problems if handled better.

Speaking of loaders, short of corrosion or build issues, the goal of the design engineer should be a loader that can never be broken by the operator. Most loaders these days are designed for a specific tractor model, and so unlike the old days, the engineer knows the exact capacities and pressures involved. Simply don't specify a loader arm cross section that can ever fail within the breakout force limits of the hydraulics.

This isn't exactly rocket science, but it does require either a combination of very expensive FEA software and an engineer who's actually capable of using it properly, or a lot of testing and design iteration. Both of these represent large expenses to a smaller manufacturer, and may be only within the budget of some of the more premium brands. I see this everyday in my line of work, and in fact a large part of my business is offering such design services to manufacturers who cannot afford to support the cost of such software and staff capable of using it.

Yes, there will always be people who abuse their equipment. But given the huge brand image penalties of broken equipment showing up on internet forums, I'd be doing my damnedest to design something like a loader such that it can never fail under the loads to which it can be subjected on the machine for which it was designed.

Design is one part of it, but then you have budget manager('s) and purchasing dept. involved downstream.
Budget dept. requests less expensive steel, purchasing department finds it cheaper but doesn't realize why the cost is reduced, i.e. thinner gauge/wall steel, lower grade steel, all things that they know nothing about but they were only to get it cheaper!
In each of their minds, they each succeeded.

 

[tradosaurus]

I'm a design engineer, have been for 30+ years. So maybe I'm quicker than most to blame the engineer when I see a failure, since I see so much bad design in my line of work, that could have easily prevented many problems if handled better.

Speaking of loaders, short of corrosion or build issues, the goal of the design engineer should be a loader that can never be broken by the operator. Most loaders these days are designed for a specific tractor model, and so unlike the old days, the engineer knows the exact capacities and pressures involved. Simply don't specify a loader arm cross section that can ever fail within the breakout force limits of the hydraulics.

This isn't exactly rocket science, but it does require either a combination of very expensive FEA software and an engineer who's actually capable of using it properly, or a lot of testing and design iteration. Both of these represent large expenses to a smaller manufacturer, and may be only within the budget of some of the more premium brands. I see this everyday in my line of work, and in fact a large part of my business is offering such design services to manufacturers who cannot afford to support the cost of such software and staff capable of using it.

Yes, there will always be people who abuse their equipment. But given the huge brand image penalties of broken equipment showing up on internet forums, I'd be doing my damnedest to design something like a loader such that it can never fail under the loads to which it can be subjected on the machine for which it was designed.

Or do like Kubota and lower the hydraulic pressure by 200psi to minimize failures from operators using tractors like a bulldozer.

 

[Fixastuff]

Ok, three days later and thanks to HF $100 welder, el cheapo Chinese made and amazon bought plasma cutter, 1/4" metal, my crappy fabrication skills, my crappy welding abilities and welds which look more like birds $hit, the tractor is back to normal. Now if we have a nuclear attack, everything will be distorted, but this boom will stay intact.



View attachment 3417804View attachment 3417805View attachment 3417806

Nice, now just back into that same stump to see if it holds.

 

[WinterDeere]

Design is one part of it, but then you have budget manager('s) and purchasing dept. involved downstream.
Budget dept. requests less expensive steel, purchasing department finds it cheaper but doesn't realize why the cost is reduced, i.e. thinner gauge/wall steel, lower grade steel, all things that they know nothing about but they were only to get it cheaper!
In each of their minds, they each succeeded.

You’re right, that always happens. But this is still the fault of Engineering, as they should have specified the requirements for the steel in such a way that the purchasing department was not allowed the freedom to switch it to an inferior alloy.

This is one of the biggest differences between an experienced engineer and an otherwise very smart but inexperienced one right out of school. The experienced engineer has been down this road with purchasing many times, and learns to specify materials and components in a way that prevents substitutions that may cause failures.

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

This is horrible to hear... Based on my experience with my dealer and my 4820... I'd recommend them to any of my friends without hesitation. I've always seen such positive remarks regarding the 2515

 

[K5lwq]

This is horrible to hear... Based on my experience with my dealer and my 4820... I'd recommend them to any of my friends without hesitation. I've always seen such positive remarks regarding the 2515

The 15 series is a great little tractor. I certainly would recommend one based on my experience. But it is a small tractor that can be over stressed like any other brand of this size. If the mission of the tractor is heavy duty work, then heavy duty equipment would be the better choice.

 

[BX23S-1]

Obviously this tractor is not meant for heavy (abuseful) work. I would fix the tractor up and get rid of it.
Then buy something next time that will do the work you intended it to do.

 

[WinterDeere]

Obviously this tractor is not meant for heavy (abuseful) work.

I have trouble understanding the concept of any tractor that can break itself. When designed by the OEM as a pairing, the loader and other components should be built to withstand the forces to which that tractor, little or otherwise, can exert upon it.

If the tractor can lift it, the loader should handle it. Conversely, if the loader cannot, the tractor manufacturer should set the bypass pressures accordingly. This is pretty basic stuff.

How many times have people on this forum repeated the old mantra that a small tractor can do all the work of a larger one, only slower? You may be contradicting your own prior posts, with this most recent claim, that the machine is bound to break if subjected to real work.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I have trouble understanding the concept of any tractor that can break itself. When designed by the OEM as a pairing, the loader and other components should be built to withstand the forces to which that tractor, little or otherwise, can exert upon it.

Your right they should, but MY experience has been they aren't! Especially compact tractors.

That's why I buy "farm" tractors do do any heavier work that I need done!

Farm tractors take it MUCH better and for much longer.

SR

 

[YanmarFever]

Dude, that was a nice job on the repair!

 

[YanmarFever]

I once sold a TLB Mahindra 2615 to a guy who dug a ditch over a mile long with it on rocky land.
After a couple of months he brought it in for repairs
New clutch, bent loader, and the backhoe rattled like a bucket of marbles.
You never know, what people do with their new machines.

 

[sd455dan]

Dont you think i'd notice if i backed up in to something? My head would fly off from the force of the impact which can crack the boom? Don't you think if it was backing in to something, first the cylinder with the hose would be damaged? Dont you think if it was backed up in to something the damage would be on the lower portion of the boom, not the upper?
So, please leave your to yourself. As i told you ones: you think wrong!

I agree, and can can confirm that... with the fact I did it with the Ford 550 last summer, Hard enough I broke two case hardened 5/8s" diameter pins in the boom swing chain and tore the chain links in half themselves. Rang my bell and the TLB's. I would have had to be in a coma not to notice the impact of backing the hoe into that tree, was still conscious enough to use some very colorful language at the time. A 2515 is much smaller but I absolutely think it would be noticed.

The Hoe breakage is a bit similar to the thread a while back on one of the smaller LS Backhoes being worked hard although the Branson is not as severe in the amount of damage done. In the LS case it was deformation and significant tearing of the steel in multiple places.

 

[BX23S-1]

I have trouble understanding the concept of any tractor that can break itself. When designed by the OEM as a pairing, the loader and other components should be built to withstand the forces to which that tractor, little or otherwise, can exert upon it.

If the tractor can lift it, the loader should handle it. Conversely, if the loader cannot, the tractor manufacturer should set the bypass pressures accordingly. This is pretty basic stuff.

How many times have people on this forum repeated the old mantra that a small tractor can do all the work of a larger one, only slower? You may be contradicting your own prior posts, with this most recent claim, that the machine is bound to break if subjected to real work.

You seem to think that you`re the smartest guy in the room, so why aren`t you on the phone to all these manufacturer`s and telling them they`ve got it all wrong then.

 

[sd455dan]

Ok, three days later and thanks to HF $100 welder, el cheapo Chinese made and amazon bought plasma cutter, 1/4" metal, my crappy fabrication skills, my crappy welding abilities and welds which look more like birds $hit, the tractor is back to normal. Now if we have a nuclear attack, everything will be distorted, but this boom will stay intact.



View attachment 3417804View attachment 3417805View attachment 3417806

Nice repair, Good Job getting back to a useable backhoe.

 

[dodge man]

I agree nice job fixing it.

 

[ultrarunner]

I agree to a point, and I am very critical of bad engineering design, too.

"...the goal of the design engineer should be a loader that can never be broken by the operator..."

Dynamic forces due to excessive speed, e.g. driving the loader too fast into immovable objects, are hard to design for. How much of a safety factor would be economical? Rhetorical question.

I’m guessing one trade off is the more heavyweight the design the less available lifting capacity.

 

[WinterDeere]

I’m guessing one trade off is the more heavyweight the design the less available lifting capacity.

lol... True!

I ordered the HD bucket option for my loader, when buying my current tractor, as my method of moving logs at that time was with chain choke slings attached to hooks on the top of the bucket. I'd seen so many bent and distorted buckets of Deere's current "standard" bucket design, that I just knew I'd destroy the thing in no time, and the HD bucket looked like the best option.

But the stupid bucket weighs something like 400#, which is a lot on a mid-sized CUT! It has a lower edge that's something like 1-1/4" thick, with then another 1" hardened steel edge bolted under that. Then there's 1/2" thick ribs every few inches along the bottom, and extra (5/16" thick?) cheeks welded to either side of the bucket. It's a great heavy-duty bucket for someone shoveling stone all day, damn thing must be nearly indestructible, but it's so heavy that I need to ballast the tractor just to drive around with an empty bucket!

If anyone wants a very heavy bucket for a Deere 3-series loader, and you're near or willing to pay freight from southeastern PA, let me know! I'd have honestly been better buying a standard bucket and just re-inforcing the top edge where I was attaching my chain hooks.

 

[WinterDeere]

You seem to think that you`re the smartest guy in the room, so why aren`t you on the phone to all these manufacturer`s and telling them they`ve got it all wrong then.

lol... I don't know what Branson is doing wrong. But I do know that when someone posts broken loader arms and broken cylinder rods, claiming it's from normal use and that there are no signs of build quality issues around those parts, you need to look at the engineering.