EV owners of today and tomorrow

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   / EV owners of today and tomorrow #1,611  
I wonder how much EV technology would have progressed in USA if it wasn't for the massive subsidies that the oil industry has received over the past hundred years?
 
   / EV owners of today and tomorrow #1,612  
That is true. If we want to be accurate, we should call it "subsidies and tax loopholes". I stuck with the former term only, because it was the phrasing used in the post to which I was responding.

That said, I'm always more apt to buy into the winning team than complain about them. I own Exxon stock, and should have bought Tesla back in 2020.
 
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   / EV owners of today and tomorrow #1,613  
Mostly wrong. Yes the latest battery technology has made EVs more viable, but what has fueled this latest EV spurt is taxpayer dollars including worldwide government subsidies for all aspects of EV R&D (including batteries), subsidies for EV manufacturers, subsidies for EV component manufacturers and governments having to bribe the public to buy EVs. Since at least as far back as 1976 the US government has been subsidizing EV development. Back then it was to wean us off foreign oil, now it's to save us from climate change. Use whatever narrative you want to make your version of reality work, but it doesn't change the facts. EVs would still be that Popular Science novelty project if it wasn't for all the government handouts.

An EV is just another tool. If it is as great as some make it out to be it will become the dominant vehicle type on its own and should not need trillions in subsidies and to be legislated down our throats. I'm with shooterdon, other than the subsidies and the environmental hypocrisy, I have nothing against EVs and would consider one if it made economic sense for our situation.

Just going to leave this here
Tesla gets relatively little of that yet dominates the EV market. Everyone else is running scared trying to catch up to Tesla by spending money like it comes from the government. Oh wait, their funding does come from the government.

We no longer live in a Free Market Capitalist economy. We are firmly into a State Capitalist economy. Polaris, Toyota, Mazda, Facebook, and supporting subcontractors did not build in Huntsville without massive state and federal funding. Yet no EVs there. Tesla gets nothing from California or Texas that any other corporation would get for building similar sized operations making ballpoint pens.

As for carbon credits, clean vehicle credits, etc, those are equally available to any automobile manufacturer who can make a product that sells. Catch-22 there, the product has to sell. This is unlike the gifts Detroit gets to build their uninspired me-too doesn't really work all that well EVs.

There are the successful EV manufactures: Tesla.

Then there are the unsuccessful EV manufactures: Everyone else.
 
   / EV owners of today and tomorrow #1,614  
I wonder how much EV technology would have progressed in USA if it wasn't for the massive subsidies that the oil industry has received over the past hundred years?
As an amateur student of the economy and government largesse I am not convinced the oil industry got the favoritism oil haters have successfully painted to be. The oil haters count tax deductions for equipment necessary for the production of oil and gasoline as a "subsidy". No honest businessman or accountant would agree.

Am not convinced the oil industry got any favoritism over any other industry. We are no longer a Free Market Economy but a State Capitalist economy directed by politicians and government giving away other people's money. Automaker doesn't build a new factory without massive government gifts. Nobody builds a factory anymore without massive government gifts. Not even a datacenter.
 
   / EV owners of today and tomorrow #1,615  
EVs have 79% more reliability problems than ICE cars, says an article in Consumer Reports.



Widely accepted wisdom has it that electric vehicles are easier to maintain than those with internal combustion powertrains. It seems intuitive—EVs have many fewer moving parts than cars that have to detonate small quantities of hydrocarbon fuel thousands of times a minute. But the data don't really bear out the idea. In fact, according to data collected by Consumer Reports, EVs are significantly less reliable than conventionally powered cars.

CR is known for buying cars for its own test fleet, but for its annual auto reliability survey, the organization cast a wider net. Specifically, it gathered data from 330,000 owners of vehicles from model year 2000 onwards, and it uses that survey data to generate reliability scores for each vehicle and model year.

The results are a little inconvenient for the EV evangelist. EVs had 79 percent more reliability problems than a gasoline- or diesel-powered vehicle, on average. Plug-in hybrids fared even worse; these had 146 percent more issues on average than the conventional alternative.
 
   / EV owners of today and tomorrow #1,616  
That is true. If we want to be accurate, we should call it "subsidies and tax loopholes". I stuck with the former term only, because it was the phrasing used in the post to which I was responding.

That said, I'm always more apt to buy into the winning team than complain about them. I own Exxon stock, and should have bought Tesla back in 2020.
Don't most businesses use tax write offs? According to the article, other companies are getting more write offs than big oil and nobody complains about those.

Now let’s analyze what the oil & gas sector pays in taxes. In 2012 the top two corporations paying federal taxes in the US were ExxonMobil and Chevron paying a combined total of $45.2 billion. On average, the industry pays a 45% tax rate when all state, federal, and foreign taxes are totaled up. By comparison the Healthcare Industry pays a total rate of 35% and the Pharmaceuticals pay an estimated rate of 21%. Based upon these numbers it’s hard to believe which business sector is criticized the most for “subsidies”.
 
   / EV owners of today and tomorrow #1,617  
Tesla gets relatively little of that yet dominates the EV market.
It's hard to find historic data on exactly how much Tesla and its buyers have received in federal and state tax credits and incentives, but the number is massive... I saw one source name it at close to $5 billion total, although I personally have my doubts it's that high. Whatever the number, arguing they receive little today, because they've already max'd out many of the program limits, is like suggesting one closes the barn doors after the horse is gone.

Tesla became the leader at least partly because they were in a good position to take advantage of those rebates, before others. Because they were very smart, and focused back in 2015 on the tech they saw as important for 2025, they were able to leverage on those rebates to be where they are today. Others buried their heads in the sand, and are now playing catch-up.
 
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   / EV owners of today and tomorrow #1,618  
Don't most businesses use tax write offs? According to the article, other companies are getting more write offs than big oil and nobody complains about those.
Yes... I sure do! But many such write-offs are crafted to specifically favor those operating in the oil industry. I'm not complaining, I've benefitted from it as well, but if we're going to keep both sides of the debate honest...
 
   / EV owners of today and tomorrow #1,619  
Am not convinced the oil industry got any favoritism over any other industry. We are no longer a Free Market Economy but a State Capitalist economy directed by politicians and government giving away other people's money.
I agree with your point, we are not a free market economy, the government has long held sway over the winners and losers... nothing new. But your first sentence seems to disagree with the one right behind it?
 
   / EV owners of today and tomorrow #1,620  
I wonder how much EV technology would have progressed in USA if it wasn't for the massive subsidies that the oil industry has received over the past hundred years?
You pose the question of comparing subsidies to encourage buying a certain vehicle, to subsidies to a natural resource used to promote a healthy country with economic development and industrialization.
It’s apples to oranges.
This country was built on oil.
It’s used for everything, from heating, lubricants, plastics, beauty care, tires, roads, pretty much everything. Back to you question, I’d say previous oil industry subsidies have had zero impact on the trajectory of EV’s.
 
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