building a barn first curve ball

[Rockbadchild]

I am/was currency in the process and gathering quotes and getting my barn drawing done for the barn, we are planning to start this summer. Also got the ball rolling with the building permits and restriction and what not. My first curve ball came reel quick, the only part accessible by vehicle of my land is under a flood zone, for one I didn't know we had these zone which make my whole land useless, the existing house and garage is in this so call flood zone which is 3 meter above the existing creek bank and extend 400ft on each side, the creek is 2 feet deep, 2 feet wide and dry most of the year. I am currently contesting this with the city. I am not happy my lawyer didn't informed me of this during the purchase... anyhow,

I have some exposure to these calculation within my education but no field experience.
I send the elevation differences with the flood zone a and creek watershed basin with the highest recoded rainfall (bigger then the region 100 year storm) and the creek natural basin is well capable (with its natural banks) to take care of this biggest recorded rainfall even without creek outflows and soil, vegetal absorption and retention, so I didn't bother kept going to the rest of the calculation with all the other variable like soil abortion, runoff coefficient, watershead slope and roughness coefficients and antecedent condition variables since these would only make my case more obvious, I did the worse case scenario one can make and it pass so no further investigation needed is my reasoning ... I proposed a new outline with these two straight froward calculation and send it out to the city. The city lady didn't know what I was talking about despite explaining it dummy proof and sent it to their consultant for referral. so now I wait.

so what can I expect (answer and time) ? will it be a no brainier ? will I need a detail survey and study done ?, what are your thought and experience on the matter ?

pink = 230 elevation
red= city flood zone
sky blue= natural creek flood zone
dark blue=creek
creek bank elevation 227
I proposed to have the sky blue as flood zone, I would settle for the pink line.

the barn we want to build

 

[dodge man]

What is the source of the flood zone? FEMA? I’ve done some flood elevations over the years. If it’s fema you can do what is called a LOMA. I think that stands for letter of map amendment. As a land surveyor I could do those and sign them and some or all of your property would be removed. For example if you house lowest level is elevation is 300 and the flood elevation is 290 they would remove your house. Same thing where your proposed barn is.

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

#1. Pretty sure in my country it’s not legal to not disclose that the land is a flood zone. #2. I had no idea you could draw up your own and ask them to accept it. Insurance companies probably wouldn’t be too keen on that. Isn’t there already a science applied to it?

 

[Rockbadchild]

What is the source of the flood zone? FEMA? I’ve done some flood elevations over the years. If it’s fema you can do what is called a LOMA. I think that stands for letter of map amendment. As a land surveyor I could do those and sign them and some or all of your property would be removed. For example if you house lowest level is elevation is 300 and the flood elevation is 290 they would remove your house. Same thing where your proposed barn is.

thanks for the response,

I asked where these limit came from and what they where based on, they said don’t know and don’t know, i ask who was in charged of them, was told the city is responsible for their flood limits and not sure if any other party are involved. I ask why the house is within it if it’s a flood zone she said the flood zone limit came after… she also said most of the town is within it and some people has built within it but didn’t seem to know about the process, she told to to make my case and see if it could be changed…

it is … how you call it bureaucracy at its finest.

 

[Rockbadchild]

#1. Pretty sure in my country it’s not legal to not disclose that the land is a flood zone. #2. I had no idea you could draw up your own and ask them to accept it. Insurance companies probably wouldn’t be too keen on that. Isn’t there already a science applied to it?

will check on that with my lawyer.

they certainly didn’t apply it in the first place … if you go back and look at the interaction between the red line (city flood zone) and the pink line (elevation line) and tell me if they apply any sciences to it …

there is a equation which I did at it’s simplest form … total area of the water system watersheds x total precipitation of the 100 year storm = volume of water

then simply took the reservoir area and it’s banks height and it is the same volume so in my mind it is cristal clear and good to go …

what is the relation between building permits and insurance… don’t insure me for flood and call it a day

 

[dodge man]

I think fema flood maps are viewable on line. I’d look at that and compare to what you are looking at from the city.

 

[ericm979]

some counties have GIS on line which shows flood maps.

 

[Rockbadchild]

I think fema flood maps are viewable on line. I’d look at that and compare to what you are looking at from the city.

Fema is an American thing but i will look for the canadian equivalent

 

[orezok]

Op is in Canada. FEMA is in US

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

Here we can build in a flood zone if we want... Good luck insuring it though.

 

[Rockbadchild]

Here we can build in a flood zone if we want... Good luck insuring it though.

lots of people around if within flood zone they simply remove ground flood from their policy.

 

[dodge man]

Sorry, I didn’t notice you were from Canada. Carry on.

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

Yes you can remove flood insurance… but that’s probably what you need in a flood plain

 

[Rockbadchild]

Yes you can remove flood insurance… but that’s probably what you need in a flood plain

If in a flood plain ... but where I am planning on building it is not a flood plain unless the next ice ages melts away its probably the last time water flowed at that elevation... if that house or that new barn gets flooded, at that point it will be the lease of my worry... if you'd see it with your own eyes you would understand, you don't need to be Einstein to figure that out.

 

[Rockbadchild]

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I tried to fin flood maps ''fema'' equivalent and didn't find anything, I don't know where the city got their boundaries or where that screen shot they send me came from.

 

[coldsteelva]

Info from your Canadian Government:

Flood mapping.

 

[Rockbadchild]

Info from your Canadian Government:

Flood mapping.

yes I saw this site but other then a topographic map I can't seem to find the actual flood map.

 

[D&D]

Info from your Canadian Government:

Flood mapping.

Yea, seems like a mess to figure out which office to point a finger at. 100 year, 500 year or we just made some cool lines on the map criterion. The climate change agenda may be plying a key role.

Flood mapping - Natural Resources Canada

natural-resources.canada.ca

 

[Rockbadchild]

It's a city zoning by law, it sound like they are the only governing body in this matter shouldn't be so bad to overturn.

 

[Jims1025R]

From my experience with building requests within protected zones, mapping, and the Ontario government, it's less than well informed people using data from unreliable sources, to enforce regulations because it's easier to say no, than to try to work it out for the applicant.

That said, we have built up areas in real flood zones near my area in central Ontario. As a long time volunteer firefighter, I've been to a lot of flooded homes, the same year after year. If flooding is a true risk where you're considering building, take it seriously.

But, after my investigation, the mapping that the Ontario government refers to for these serious determinations is very casual. I was told from within the government that: ".... summer students are hired to use the aerial photos to create the mapping..." [for later use]. Thus, well meaning, but low skilled people are making interpretations which really affect what you want to do, and then a bureaucrat uses those maps without further (qualified) interpretation, to apply the prevailing regulations for better or worse.

I did overcome the Lake Simcoe Conservation Authority, and had their refusal to allow my building overturned. I did that based upon their (I demanded) on site inspection, and review of topographic reality of the land. Based upon that success, I helped a friend with the permit for his garage. But, he is on the bitter edge of a flood zone, and I came to understand it was a matter of feet of location, and the answer would have been a hard no for him.

When you're dealing with the local authority, ask: Are they actually enforcing a regulation, in denying your request? Or, are they interpreting mapping, and making their own decision? If they are blindly enforcing a regulation, you've got a tough path ahead, as they have no motivation to be found to have broken a regulation, particularly when that parcel of land is the subject of a flood complaint in years to come. If they are interpreting, maybe reason can be added to the basis for the decision. Would they accept a berm around the affected area? Or, raise the base height of your barn?