another hiccup to going solar?

[CoolTech]

ROI timeframes will vary a lot I suppose based on where you live (how much sun), energy rates, how much you pay for the solar (DIY will save you a LOT), and what kind of grid connections terms may be available in your area. We are just completing a new home & shop. In the planning phase I oriented the 85 x 41' shop so that it faces predominately South to accommodate the panels. I'm in SoCal - so we have a lot of sun and, unfortunately, high usage costs. My goal - which I believe we will achieve, is to have $0 energy costs on an annualized basis. (Yes, realistically, I will have a minimum admin bill of ~$40/mo.) We have just completed the installation - all DIY and thanks a lot for the help of my 31 year old son.

We have 63 365-watt panels connected via Enphase IQ8+ microinverters. The total out-of-pocket expense for the panels, microinverters, wiring, and mounting system was ~$36,000 and we will get a Federal refund of 30% so the true cost will be ~$26,000. Our new home is all electric (no gas) - so electric (Hybrid) hot water heater, clothes dryer, heating, oven and cooktop. We got our NEM 2.0 (grid connection) application in before the April 14th cut-off which is a HUGE benefit... and which is no longer available in California. We'll get a 20-year grandfather to stay in the program.

In short, during the mild temperature but mostly sunny days in Jan, Feb, Mar, April, and May we will be storing credits with the Utility company. Then, in the hotter months of June-Sept when we are running the AC, we will withdraw from the accumulated credits.... and most likely achieve a $0 balance on an annualized (NEM) plan.

As for the ROI, our energy costs on our older but much smaller home nearby was approximately $5,400. No doubt, energy costs will increase in the coming years so payback will come in less than 5-years. But - one should note that with the withdrawal of the NEM plan for new applicants, the payback scenario is going to worsen considerably. First, one would most likely need to consider the cost of battery storage and even with that the most common scenario is to capture (charge) batteries during the day and then use that energy during the evening hours. There's nothing equivalent to a NEM plan where you can capitalize on energy credits you built months prior.

 

[ultrarunner]

Net Metering is changing here as it proved too much of an incentive.

Just received my annual True Up statement along with a $360 check.

This is after deducting minimum monthly charges, etc.

I expect next year to be a fraction under the reduced kW buy back.

Might be time to installed electric water heater to use more of what I generate... which tends to average about 10kW a day most of the year... not too shabby for circa 2007 160W panels.

 

[DKCDKC]

I haven't read all the pages of comments on this thread, but I haven't seen one factor in evaluating solar that I am considering. I am out in a very rural area and, at almost 80, may well need whole-house backup power for medical reasons in the next few years. A number of my relatives moved in that direction years ago. I have a geothermal heat pump and my electric bill is very modest for a 3,000 sq ft home, but I will need a sizable backup generator on the order of $15K to $25K I am told. With the various government subsidies, I can get solar panels for a reasonable amount and then spend $10K or more on batteries to gain the emergency generation I might need down the road. I know the actual economics for solar in a residential or small farm setting aren't great, but when you factor in possible use as backup generator, they look a lot better. I haven't decided on what I'm going to do... But I am studying it. BTW, I'm on a co-op and very rarely have outages - and have a small, portable generator and a few good battery power-stations to tide me over if/when I have an outage. And they're awfully handy for electric power out on the land when needed.

 

[orezok]

If you are worried about solar owners are being subsidized by non solar owners, then you should be outraged that the petrochemical industry received 20 BILLION in subsidies last year. All paid for by me and other tax payers. Then of course there is pharmaceutical, transportation and FARMING!

The solar amount is a drop in the bucket compared to these.

 

[ericm979]

I haven't read all the pages of comments on this thread, but I haven't seen one factor in evaluating solar that I am considering. I am out in a very rural area and, at almost 80, may well need whole-house backup power for medical reasons in the next few years. A number of my relatives moved in that direction years ago. I have a geothermal heat pump and my electric bill is very modest for a 3,000 sq ft home, but I will need a sizable backup generator on the order of $15K to $25K I am told. With the various government subsidies, I can get solar panels for a reasonable amount and then spend $10K or more on batteries to gain the emergency generation I might need down the road. I know the actual economics for solar in a residential or small farm setting aren't great, but when you factor in possible use as backup generator, they look a lot better. I haven't decided on what I'm going to do... But I am studying it. BTW, I'm on a co-op and very rarely have outages - and have a small, portable generator and a few good battery power-stations to tide me over if/when I have an outage. And they're awfully handy for electric power out on the land when needed.

It depends on what your power outages are like. For example here we had some week+ long outages this winter after heavy rains and an unusual series of snow storms. Some neighbors have expensive and extensive battery + solar backup systems and still ran out of power. Their solar just wasn't generating enough. The neighbors with a new (efficient) house, solar and battery setup with the ability to charge from a generator did fine. They charged their batteries from the generator a few hours a day. Our old tech gas generator did ok though we had to run to town for more gas when the road was technically closed and we had to clear a lot of branches off the road and squeeze the truck under downed power lines to do it.

One interesting thing is with all the outages here this winter, a lot of folks with Tesla batteries had the batteries quit on them. They didn't run down, they just stopped producing power. Tesla support seems to be pretty hit or miss as well. Some people didn't get their batteries back on line for weeks. Based on that I would avoid their batteries.

Generator installers often sell the biggest generator they can. They don't want customers coming back and saying the generator didn't power everything. But those big generators go through propane fast. If you're on piped gas that's no problem but a number of our neighbors ran out of propane this winter during our outages. Then you're sitting in the dark with no heat or hot water. If you do a load calculation and possibly use load sheds on the big appliances so you can't run them at the same time, you can use a smaller more efficient generator.

 

[Torvy]

If you are worried about solar owners are being subsidized by non solar owners, then you should be outraged that the petrochemical industry received 20 BILLION in subsidies last year. All paid for by me and other tax payers. Then of course there is pharmaceutical, transportation and FARMING!

The solar amount is a drop in the bucket compared to these.

Here's the difference. Oil is a strategic resource, meaning we need it for national defense. Planes, tanks and such don't run on batteries and solar panels. Even if we never use oil for fuel, it is necessary for lubrication, plastics and asphalt for roads. Oil products are used for fertilizer and medicines, too.

This is like the difference between public domain for roads and infrastructure versus public domain for skate parks. They are both a thing, but one is vastly more important than the other.

 

[orezok]

Here's the difference. Oil is a strategic resource, meaning we need it for national defense. Planes, tanks and such don't run on batteries and solar panels. Even if we never use oil for fuel, it is necessary for lubrication, plastics and asphalt for roads. Oil products are used for fertilizer and medicines, too.

This is like the difference between public domain for roads and infrastructure versus public domain for skate parks. They are both a thing, but one is vastly more important than the other.

And electric is just as necessary for national defense. No computers, no defense.

 

[Torvy]

And electric is just as necessary for national defense. No computers, no defense.

Ah, but we've had electric without wind or solar. We don't NEED them, some people WANT them, that's a big difference when we are talking about spending other people's money.

 

[Mtsoxfan]

And electric is just as necessary for national defense. No computers, no d

Ah, but we've had electric without wind or solar. We don't NEED them, some people WANT them, that's a big difference when we are talking about spending other people's money.

Maybe we should be looking at alternatives to plastics, oil based lubricants etc. Google search shows they are out there as far as lubricants go.

At a glance: Hydro Lubricants made by Klüber Lubrication​

• Innovative technology: water as a core component with a cooling effect.
• Reduced energy consumption: friction and wear in components are minimised.
• Substantial temperature reduction in the component: the natural cooling effect of water increases the component's mileage and service life.
• No harmful solvents: improved occupational safety and health protection.

Just not lining the pockets of the people who make decisions for us...

 

[MAX-24-Dean]

If you are worried about solar owners are being subsidized by non solar owners, then you should be outraged that the petrochemical industry received 20 BILLION in subsidies last year. All paid for by me and other tax payers. Then of course there is pharmaceutical, transportation and FARMING!

The solar amount is a drop in the bucket compared to these.

Subsidies, A neccessary evil?
I am a firm believer in no subsidies for anyone. In order to pay out subsidies the supplier of the subsidy has to take money away from other people to pay for them.
Subsidies are just one big basket to me, taking money from everyone to redistribute the money to a percieved need.
In a national emergency, yes I can see a subsidy as being helpful.