Any Excavation Professionals Feel Like Giving Advice?

[Streetcar]

I don’t know why people want to feel special and describe gravel in mostly regional terms. Everyone knows what a washed 3/4 stone is or what 1-3” looks like.

The original poster is in Ohio, so I gave him Ohio stone terms For the topping material. #1,#2 &57s are from national standards

 

[paulsharvey]

Can we circle back around to any washed rock, of a fairly uniform size, is not going to bond, and form a smooth durable parking surface, by any name.

 

[paulsharvey]

One guy said he would strip the soil down to clay, use #1 and #2 limestone as a base, then top dress with #57 limestone

No issue with this, other then the topping material; I would definitely want to know either the thickness or spread rate, or total tons/cys he's proposing; maybe the thought is the 57 will get pushed into the larger rock below; but will still aways have a loose top layer

One guy said he would strip the soil down to clay, use geo-textile fabric, use #1 and #2 as a base, then top dress with #57

No issue; but the fabric is intended to bridge soft pumping material (organics/fat wet clays, does its job, but doesn't 100% fix it; note this isn't a rigid pavement, and minor settlement over the years wouldn't be the end of the world); once again, make sure 1 and 2 are proposing similar thickness; I would not go from 6" with no fabric to 4" with fabric;

One guy said he would NOT strip any soil, use asphalt chunks and grindings as a base, the top dress with #57 lime stone

This is an odd one; in that "grindings" wouldn't benefit from a top coat of stone; unless your wanting an astetic. The "chuncks" concern me a bit; but actually millings straight from the roadway do have chuncks, flakes, RPMs, and a bit of everything. My concern with "chuncks" is are we talking basically demo debris? That'd not what you want, unless we are just filling a swampy pit. Again, compare apples to apples on thickness. #3 sounds bad at first, if this is a poorly drained, nasty area, I could see using larger asphalt debris as a stabilizing material, and something smoother on top. It's almost Always best practice to strip organics; but if some cases; IE its a swampy pit, it can be like waking the dead, basically churning up the soap. If the native soils are fairly decent, strip the organics; avoid disturbing more then necessary; and add base.

Ideally, any road/parking area/trail/building pad should be higher then the surrounding area, either by use of swales or by building up. If your fighting high ground water levels; the base will stay wet if the finish grade is equal to surround area; you just create a sump where you excavate.

 

[LD1]

AS you can tell from most of the responses......stone "terminology" is definitely different state to state. Finally this is an ohio poster so I can relate. So my first reply here is for everyone else....

#1-2's is the largest before going to rip-rap. They are ~3"-5" stone. Roughly the size of your fist.
#4's is also common for a base....they are about golfball sized. 1.5"-2"
#57 is 5-7 sized stone. ~3/4" stone. Like a large marble
#8 is "pea gravel" size. Just limestone not gravel. ~3/8"

All those are washed and uniform in size. IE: no dust

Then there are 304's which is #4 sized to dust. Basically anything and everything that will fall through a #4 screen. So it has 4's, 57's 8's and lots of dust.

411's are anything that will fall through the 57 screen. So same principal of 304's.....just cuts out the larger sizes but still lots of fines and dust.

 

[Rockbadchild]

AS you can tell from most of the responses......stone "terminology" is definitely different state to state. Finally this is an ohio poster so I can relate. So my first reply here is for everyone else....

#1-2's is the largest before going to rip-rap. They are ~3"-5" stone. Roughly the size of your fist.
#4's is also common for a base....they are about golfball sized. 1.5"-2"
#57 is 5-7 sized stone. ~3/4" stone. Like a large marble
#8 is "pea gravel" size. Just limestone not gravel. ~3/8"

All those are washed and uniform in size. IE: no dust

Then there are 304's which is #4 sized to dust. Basically anything and everything that will fall through a #4 screen. So it has 4's, 57's 8's and lots of dust.

411's are anything that will fall through the 57 screen. So same principal of 304's.....just cuts out the larger sizes but still lots of fines and dust.

thanks for this clarification ... like paulsharvey pointed out I would also be interested on the thickness each contractor are planning on using and the cost per cubic yard of each type of material.

​

 

[LD1]

Now to the OP......I would choose NONE of those contractors.

I have done alot of driveways. And know others that build driveways as well. The general rule for a solid drive is strip topsoil.....(usually about 6").....then lay down geotek.
Lay down geotek
8" of 1-2's
3-4" of either 304's or 411's. The dust will filter down into the base layer and lock everything together.
Then (if customer chooses) top with a 1" layer of either 57's or 8's. Just depends on what the customer wants. This results in a drive that is ~5-6" higher than existing grade. And the topsoil stripped is spread and leveled/tapered away from the driveway.

Ever see a dumptruck stuck in a 8" layer of 1-2's. I have......they DONT lock together and the slightest wheel slip and they sink.

Same thing with 57's.

You put down 1-2's and then a thick layer of 57's and its gonna be a nightmare. Nothing will lock together and stay that way. It wont pack and wont remain firm.

For a 30x30 pad...If you DIDNT want it leveled.....youd be ~34t of 1-2.....17t of 411's, and about 5t of 57's plus the geo fabric.

IF you want to correct for the elevation and make it a level pad. Do that ALL with 1-2's....then top with 4" of 411's and a thin coat of 57's on top. Use the topsoil stripped to deposit around the stone on the low sides to "back up" the stone and keep it from wanting to push out. And that would probably up the 1-2's to about 60t

Not sure where in ohio you are (distance to quarry plays a part in stone prices). But in my neck of the woods......NOT accounting for level......and striping topsoil and just doing geo + 8" of 1-2's + 4" of 411's + topcoat of 57's I'd price that job at ~$3000

IF I accounted for level I'd be ~$3800

 

[LD1]

thanks for this clarification ... like paulsharvey pointed out I would also be interested on the thickness each contractor are planning on using and the cost per cubic yard of each type of material.

​

Stone is sold by the ton. And most figure a yard = 1.5 ton.

The guys I have haul for my jobs haul 24-25t at a time.

And most contractors will put markup on the stone. Myself included. I last quoted 1-2's at $32/ton and 304/411 at $29/ton

But it all depends on proximity to quarry, and the relationship you have with someone that hauls it

 

[Egon]

I am in the process of talking to a few local excavation companies in regards to a project. It's a simple project (they all have said this), but each has their own method of completing the project. I've been wanting to get this project done for a while now, and life keeps on getting in the way so I will be hiring this one out to a professional.

The project is a 30' x 30' gravel parking pad. The area where it will be installed is currently grass and soil. The area slopes approximately 1.5' right to left over the 30' area and 1' front to back over the 30' area.

My question is: is there truly a "right" way to do this?

One guy said he would strip the soil down to clay, use #1 and #2 limestone as a base, then top dress with #57 limestone

One guy said he would strip the soil down to clay, use geo-textile fabric, use #1 and #2 as a base, then top dress with #57

One guy said he would NOT strip any soil, use asphalt chunks and grindings as a base, the top dress with #57 lime stone

They all claim that their way is the "best" way.

So, I am seeking an outsider's opinion which method seems the most logical to go about this project.

Thanks

A couple of questions: How deep and what type of material is the topsoil? What Is the base layer like. What is the soil moisture content and how does the drainage work.

These are questions to ask before any work should began.
On the stone used I have no idea on the local terminology Or availability. That said the base layer should be well graded 3/4 inch crush and definitely not washed. The top layer should be 1/2 inch well graded crushed gravel not washed. Granular material should be laid down so it is well mixed.

The base clay should see some packing with a vibratory sheep foot type packer. The granular material is packed using a vibratory drum roller.

 

[LD1]

This is how I do a driveway. Topcoat of #57 or #8 not shown but optional. Some people don't like.

 

[deezler]

i agree but I will say this again … nobody creat base with pure stone regardless of its size … the only time pure stone is used during road construction is when you are 6” in mud and water … then you would put pure stone to get out of the water then put any granular from 0 inch to what ever they call for … in water you can’t put any fine since it will turn to soupe … pure stone is describe as self compacted, therefore is dosent hold any compaction you need fines to be able to achieve any sord of compaction.

I'm not sure who you are trying to convince with this statement, but I would presume that the first two contractors saying to "strip the top soil" also includes leveling the parking pad area, compacting and readying it for stone. Just because the pad area slope a foot in one way or another doesn't mean the whole thing has to be raised up with dirt fill prior to stone - depending on drainage and customer preference of course.

 

[ovrszd]

AS you can tell from most of the responses......stone "terminology" is definitely different state to state. Finally this is an ohio poster so I can relate. So my first reply here is for everyone else....

#1-2's is the largest before going to rip-rap. They are ~3"-5" stone. Roughly the size of your fist.
#4's is also common for a base....they are about golfball sized. 1.5"-2"
#57 is 5-7 sized stone. ~3/4" stone. Like a large marble
#8 is "pea gravel" size. Just limestone not gravel. ~3/8"

All those are washed and uniform in size. IE: no dust

Then there are 304's which is #4 sized to dust. Basically anything and everything that will fall through a #4 screen. So it has 4's, 57's 8's and lots of dust.

411's are anything that will fall through the 57 screen. So same principal of 304's.....just cuts out the larger sizes but still lots of fines and dust.

I always wonder,,,, who the hell thought these up???? It certainly wasn't a blue collar worker at the quarry or on the construction site. Some overpaid white collar pencil pusher that wanted to know something you do not.

For example, in all of your excellent descriptions of the various gravels above, none of the names, not one, have any implication as to the size of the gravel. None.

Very amusing to me. But then I'm the blue collar grader operator trying to order a load of gravel that makes sense for the project at hand.

 

[ovrszd]

This is a very interesting thread in regards to perspectives. A lot of assumptions.

Still am amused that some want to level the pad with stone. Some don't give leveling any consideration and are willing to build a pad with a 18" fall in 30ft one direction and a 12" fall in 30ft in another direction.

 

[EddieWalker]

The guy wanting to used crushed asphalt should be ignored.

How much topsoil do you have there? Do you even have top soil? Be careful of removing material that you don't have to remove. In my area, we do not have topsoil, the clay is what we grow everything in, and there is no reason to remove it. Those who do, just create other issues by lowering where the water wants to go, and creating a wet area.

If it's just grass, mow it short, spray it with Roundup, and cover it with stone. If you really want it flat, you can build up the low area with more stone. Any time you remove material, you have to create drainage for that area. For a parking area where you live, you have to decide if that's really needed.

Be careful of advice that's given because that's what they did, or that's what they where told. Consider every aspect of your area, and what the water is going to do once you create this parking area. And most of all, be sure that you know what topsoil is, and if you actually have it.

 

[LD1]

I always wonder,,,, who the hell thought these up???? It certainly wasn't a blue collar worker at the quarry or on the construction site. Some overpaid white collar pencil pusher that wanted to know something you do not.

For example, in all of your excellent descriptions of the various gravels above, none of the names, not one, have any implication as to the size of the gravel. None.

Very amusing to me. But then I'm the blue collar grader operator trying to order a load of gravel that makes sense for the project at hand.

Im not sure where the sizing and stone "grades" came from.

But what I posted above I know ohio uses. Its what I grew up with knowing the sizes.

It wasnt until TBN that I learned other areas of the country are different. People talking like 2a modified, or #3 (which we dont even have in ohio), and all sorts of other lingo

But.....stone isnt the only thing that has a meaningless designation:

Like tractor models. (they have gotten better these last 20 years where the numbers actually mean something).....but look at the 1970's-1990's. Tractor model numbers was just some crazy designation that meant nothing at all.

Or what about letter and number drill bits? Most people know a #7 is for 1/4-20 threads and a letter F if you want 5/16-18.....but they mean what exactly?

Or chuck key sizes? Who actually knows what size they use? or do they just find a random one that works.

OR what about machine screw sizes? Like 8-32 or 10-32. Just what does the 8 and 10 mean?

Or nails? Just what is a 16 penny nail? or a 20?

Rockwell hardness scale? Higher number is harder.....so they certainly arent correlating that to the depression depth of the ball or diamond tip? Cause if they did....higher would be softer

I could probably go on all day.

 

[LD1]

This is a very interesting thread in regards to perspectives. A lot of assumptions.

Still am amused that some want to level the pad with stone. Some don't give leveling any consideration and are willing to build a pad with a 18" fall in 30ft one direction and a 12" fall in 30ft in another direction.

Definitally not enough information in the original post.

Perhaps a certain elevation target must be met. Maybe tie to an existing driveway? Where leveling the pad would result in too much drop-off from the driveway?

But if its just a parking pad and not a pad for a building or shop or camper.....I dont really see the need to make it perfectly level. 1' of fall over 30' isnt much at all.

My last little 20x30 garage I built.....was right off the turn around of my house driveway. I though it was pretty darn level......until I started shooting it and found I had a 12" drop over the 30' direction and an 8" drop over 20'. Took more stone than I wanted to level for the building......but if it was just gonna be a parking pad.....That slope would be almost unnoticeable.

 

[The-AJ88]

Definitally not enough information in the original post.

Perhaps a certain elevation target must be met. Maybe tie to an existing driveway? Where leveling the pad would result in too much drop-off from the driveway?

But if its just a parking pad and not a pad for a building or shop or camper.....I dont really see the need to make it perfectly level. 1' of fall over 30' isnt much at all.

My last little 20x30 garage I built.....was right off the turn around of my house driveway. I though it was pretty darn level......until I started shooting it and found I had a 12" drop over the 30' direction and an 8" drop over 20'. Took more stone than I wanted to level for the building......but if it was just gonna be a parking pad.....That slope would be almost unnoticeable.

The parking pad will connect to an existing gravel driveway. Using the existing driveway as the target final grade for the parking pad, the unexcavated area is approximately
1.5' slope right to left over the 30' area and 1' slope front to back over the 30' area. Perfectly level is not required, but I am looking for some improvement to minimize the slope to prevent delivery vehicles from getting stuck in the winter time when they are using the turn around area.

 

[ddbackhoe]

I always wonder,,,, who the hell thought these up???? It certainly wasn't a blue collar worker at the quarry or on the construction site. Some overpaid white collar pencil pusher that wanted to know something you do not.

For example, in all of your excellent descriptions of the various gravels above, none of the names, not one, have any implication as to the size of the gravel. None.

Very amusing to me. But then I'm the blue collar grader operator trying to order a load of gravel that makes sense for the project at hand.

some geeky technical guys. Stone thrown in a pile or raked around the yard doesnt naturally tend to bond together very well. Subgrade and the material chosen to bring up to grade, have compaction standards that actually increase the surface‘s load bearing ability.

 

[paulsharvey]

For the slope issue; I would want between 2% and 6% slope; more is a problem; less can be too. 18" in 30 ft would be toward the max I would want. Of coarse, once again, depends on if we are just parking a car or pick up, or plan on doing a lot of automotive work on this parking pad....

 

[The-AJ88]

For the slope issue; I would want between 2% and 6% slope; more is a problem; less can be too. 18" in 30 ft would be toward the max I would want. Of coarse, once again, depends on if we are just parking a car or pick up, or plan on doing a lot of automotive work on this parking pad....

The pad will only be used for turning around and parking. UPS/Fed Ex delivery trucks will be the heaviest vehicle using it. Otherwise just passenger and light duty vehicles.

 

[paulsharvey]

The pad will only be used for turning around and parking. UPS/Fed Ex delivery trucks will be the heaviest vehicle using it. Otherwise just passenger and light duty vehicles.

In that case, a 5% slope isn't going to be an issue; the turnaround part makes me even more leary of a loose rock topping.

In all honesty, we are all disagreeing on methods, but it boils down to how much you care about looks and your budget. You could spend as little as maybe $500 for a sand-clay area, about 6-8" thick, and spread with a box blade after spraying round up; to a $5000 nice looking, concrete pad, or professionally done millings/crushcrete area. There's not really a right or wrong answer, as long as it meets your expectations.