California Targets Private Property With Latest Water Well Fees, Charges: Report

[ponytug]

From what I've read about desalization plants is that you end up with a huge amount of brine, that is too salty to just put back, locally in the ocean. It would kill every thing along the environmentally sensitive California coast line. You would have to have huge evaporation ponds and clear out the salt once and a while. Land isn't cheap along the Californa coast. They could probably sell the salt, yet, they couldn't sell it for any sort of profit, as mining and refining salt from Utah is much, much cheaper.

While in some locations, it does make sense to evaporate the brine to dryness, that isn't true in most places. Drying is often complicating, often requiring large areas for ponds or higher costs for things like evaporators and crystallizers, but it can be done.

If your desalination plant is in, say Phoenix, then, yes, evaporating to dryness may be an option, but even then you need either a nearby state wanting salt for roads, a chemical plant, or a landfill that could accept it (most can't).

The reverse osmosis concentrate, or brine, is generally about twice the concentration of the incoming seawater. The limitation is primarily one of energy; while you can concentrate ocean water further, the energy costs to do so increase dramatically. The usual brine disposal strategies are either a discharge pipe with many holes to disperse the concentrated brine rapidly over a long and large area, or, if the local subsurface topography permits, to a deep depth where the environmental impact is small due to low densities of animals, and the dilution tends to be quick. Sometimes a deep brine aquifer is available for disposal, but not commonly. There is one being proposed for Jordan that would use the altitude drop from the Red Sea to the Dead Sea to supply some of the energy for reverse osmosis to generate fresh water for Jordan and Israel. I think the current price tag is on the order of $10B.

Any time that you are doing reverse osmosis, the end fate of the concentrate tends to be an important, and often limiting, design point.

There are technologies on the horizon that might, and I stress might, further process reverse osmosis concentrate into more valuable commodities, but a great deal will depend on the source water. E.g. San Joaquin drain water reverse osmosis concentrate is likely to be high in selenium, fertilizers, and agricultural chemicals. Not super useful in its concentrated form, unless you could sort out, say the fertilizers, from the selenium, pesticide, and herbicide mixtures. Reverse osmosis concentrate from urban waste water tends to be enriched in things like pharmaceuticals, hair conditioner, etc.

Reverse osmosis isn't trivial, but it will likely be an increasingly important of water supplies in many parts of the world as a combination larger populations and more variable water supplies lead to water shortfalls.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Oaktree]

From what I've read about desalization plants is that you end up with a huge amount of brine, that is too salty to just put back, locally in the ocean. It would kill every thing along the environmentally sensitive California coast line. You would have to have huge evaporation ponds and clear out the salt once and a while. Land isn't cheap along the Californa coast. They could probably sell the salt, yet, they couldn't sell it for any sort of profit, as mining and refining salt from Utah is much, much cheaper.

Yeah, but they could get a premium price for it because it's sea salt!
Agreed that what to do with all the extracted salt would be a huge problem. Any land used for evaporation ponds is essentially useless for anything else ever again.

 

[jigs_n_fixtures]

Yeah, but they could get a premium price for it because it's sea salt!
Agreed that what to do with all the extracted salt would be a huge problem. Any land used for evaporation ponds is essentially useless for anything else ever again.

Never understood the desire for Sea Salt as opposed to salt mined underground as a solid. The salt from under the ground tylically deposited long before man started mucking up and producing waste.

While sea salt has some level of contamination for all the muck we dumped in every water way on earth, and all teh nuclear contaminant from smokestacks, and air borne and water testing of nuclear weapons. all of that is present at micro levels in sea salt.

 

[MossRoad]

Never understood the desire for Sea Salt as opposed to salt mined underground as a solid. The salt from under the ground tylically deposited long before man started mucking up and producing waste.

While sea salt has some level of contamination for all the muck we dumped in every water way on earth, and all teh nuclear contaminant from smokestacks, and air borne and water testing of nuclear weapons. all of that is present at micro levels in sea salt.

Sea salt tastes a little different because it has other things in it that table salt doesn't. Also, it's a bit crunchier, because it's bigger chunks, while table salt is processed down to fine grains. So sea salt adds some nice texture.

However, sea salt doesn't have iodine. Table salt is usually iodized. You need iodine.

Either way, they both have about the same amount of salt, and neither is really healthier than the other.

I like to use sea salt in rubs or sprinkled on meats, pretzels, etc. I use table salt when I bake. I also use coarse Kosher salt. All are tasty.

 

[ultrarunner]

I get my salt from the oldest salt mine in the world going back 7,000 years and now a world heritage site.

Salzwelten Hallstatt

 

[cqaigy2]

I can taste the difference in "sea salts". I can tell you if it's from the coast of Ireland or from the Himalayans etc. I also have a very keen sense of smell, and that's not really a blessing. I'm guessing it's kinda like being able to read someone's mind, you know things that about the person you are talking to that you'd rather not.

 

[ponytug]

I'm not a hyper taster but I think that a close relative is. It isn't an obvious blessing. It seems akin to having an open wound; unlike regular skin, every little thing is felt and reacted to. My sympathies.

I do prefer sea salts as well, because of the differences in flavors. I can't stand "lite"-salt(KCl).

Around here some of the salt flats are being reclaimed and turned into wetlands. It is amazing how fast the plants and wildlife move in, but it still takes years for the lower 2' or so of salt to dissolve.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ultrarunner]

It would not take much of a well to keep the homestead going and neighbors very much the same.

Water bill for the last 61 days shows 100 gallon per day use and this includes every other day laundry and watering the various fruit trees…

Not sure how much more 3 people in s 2400 square foot home on 5 acres can cut back?

 

[California]

Around here some of the salt flats are being reclaimed and turned into wetlands. It is amazing how fast the plants and wildlife move in, but it still takes years for the lower 2' or so of salt to dissolve.

It's interesting to see photos of those salt flats in the South (SF) Bay, in aerial photos.

Your comment brought to mind something I hadn't thought about in 70 years: When US40 (Now I-80) ran near sea level in the Richmond/Pinole/Hercules part of the East Bay by the big refineries, you could see ponds in the mud flats by the shore where used motor oil was 'reclaimed' by letting the contaminants settle out. I recall asking my father if this was ecologically rational (using whatever words were common then). He said don't worry, they know what they're doing.

I hate to think what's in the residual mud there now.

 

[ponytug]

It's interesting to see photos of those salt flats in the South (SF) Bay, in aerial photos.

Your comment brought to mind something I hadn't thought about in 70 years: When US40 (Now I-80) ran near sea level in the Richmond/Pinole/Hercules part of the East Bay by the big refineries, you could see ponds in the mud flats by the shore where used motor oil was 'reclaimed' by letting the contaminants settle out. I recall asking my father if this was ecologically rational (using whatever words were common then). He said don't worry, they know what they're doing.

I hate to think what's in the residual mud there now.

That sounds bad. Like really bad.

FWIW: wikipedia says about the Castro Cove area;

"Between 1902 and 1987 the refinery released noxious chemicals into the surrounding environment with impunity.[39] This came in the form of contaminated process water from the industrial facilities of the complex. There are unhealthy levels of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) and mercury in the estuarine habitats of Castro Cove and the San Pablo Creek Marsh adjacent to the refinery's runoff from their waste water outfall. The water is highly toxic to wildlife and is too polluted for fishing, swimming, or wading.[39]​

...​

In 2007 and 2008, Chevron engaged in a clean-up operation of the cove that cost between $20 and $30 million after being ordered to do so by the California Regional Water Quality Control Board's Bay Protection and Toxic Clean-up Program (which found Chevron liable for an additional $2.85 million in "natural resources damages.")[41]"​

Does that sound like it might be the mudflats that you saw?

All the best,

Peter