Yet another Ford 1700 with hydraulic issues...

[teachag295]

I bought a Ford 1700 with around 850 hours about ten years ago. About four years ago the water pump went out on me. I replaced it and decided to do a top to bottom service on it. I found that the hydraulic fluid was very sludgy and looked like some moisture had gotten in it. I pulled the strainer (this tractor does not have an actual filter) and found it had a hole in it so I searched and finally found a replacement. I flushed out the case and refilled it with new 134-D. When I went to use it again, the 3pt would not go up. I spent a bunch of time messing with it and finally parked it because I had other projects that took priority. A few months later it took a stray bullet through the radiator on I believe on new year. Then it just sat until a couple weeks ago when I decided I either needed to get it running or get rid of it.

I brought it in to work for one of my students (I am a high school Ag Mechanics Teacher) to work on. We replaced the radiator, battery, battery cables, and fluids. After some fiddling to get the injection pump primed, it runs strong but there was still no hydraulics. We pulled the cylinder from under the seat and the piston seal was shot. What was left crumbled at the touch. We replaced that and now with no load, the arms will lift and will stay up even with the tractor off but have no strength. I am not a big guy and I can easily hold them down. I also do not hear a chatter of a relieve valve popping off at the top. I just got a pressure gauge and will try to hook that up tomorrow. I saw among others JC-jetro's thread My F-1700 testing my patience which had some great information. I am worried that it might be my pump as well. He indicated that the seal kit was around $40. I know that was a long time ago but the only seal kit I see is SBA340490172 for about $173 which replaces SBA340490157 that my parts book shows. The shaft seal SBA340490151 is still close to what it was in his original thread. Do I have this right?

I am thinking my first steps are to test the pressure, pull the relief valve guts and make sure it is not sticking open, then possibly drain the fluid again and pull the strainer to make sure it is not plugged up again. Messing with the pump is the absolute last resort for me.

Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[teachag295]

Also, what is the difference between these two pumps? 307001-3300 and SBA340450240 The second number is most commonly seen as the pump for this tractor but listings for the first number also say they fit the tractor and can be found for about half the price. The pictures of them look the same.

 

[JC-jetro]

Howdy,

I am out of town and don't have good access to my stuff. You have done all things right and in right order. It might be your pump or shaft seal. Pump can be taken off non-destructively for inspection. You might have internal blockage or something else wrong with pump. if the gears and pump inner case is not damaged you might be able to put it back together.It can be opened up without damage to the seal. Hopefully it is the shaft seal where it is easier to source and not that expensive. I have a ton of pics doing play by play. The banjos on inlet and outlet of the pump and 4 bolts removed can free up the pump. Just study the pump and piping anatomy. I will head back home on Thursday and can post details that you might need.

Ps. I am in Sunny California and soaking up some sun.

 

[JC-jetro]

I just visited my old post again. At that time, i used a picture posting website that was free. They changed their policies and asking for $$. My account got cancelled and all the pics were lost at the hosting site. I do however have all the pics and can re-post as needed. Just let me know what you need. I can quickly post some pics without explanation and add more as you might need with explanation.

JC,

 

[teachag295]

Thank you for your replies. I hope you had a safe trip in California. That is where I am.

Since my last post I pulled the relief valve assembly and everything looked like it should based on the manual. I drained the fluid thinking maybe there was still sludge in there that had clogged the strainer up but the fluid looked brand new. I checked the o-rings on the suction side and they are good. I read in another thread that the fluid level should be 7 in below the top of the case so I checked that and found it to be about half an inch low. I added about a gallon of fluid which brought it up to level but did not make a difference. I raised the three-point which will barely go up, stopped it, and set 200 lb worth of feed sacks on it. I measured how high it was and left it overnight. In about 16 hours it did not move at all. Then I ran down to the hardware store and got an adapter so I can put a hydraulic gauge on and even at a relatively high throttle, it did not register any pressure on a 3000 psi gauge.

I feel like I have exhausted all of my options other than tackling the pump. I thought about adding a hydraulic stop leak type additive but I don't know what that would do to the wet brakes and any other seals that are still good. My experience is that type of fix is just a Band-Aid that kicks the can down the road a few months. I will probably pull the pump and bring it home to open up in my home shop rather than at the school. Will it be obvious if the seals are bad inside the pump? If the shaft seal was bad would that be leaking fluid into the engine? Also, am I looking at the right part numbers? Weirdly, these parts are available in Europe for a fraction of the price.

 

[JC-jetro]

Howdy, Yup, Cali was good, Plenty of sun and traffic. Hard to afford real estate, yikes.

I would not use any stop leak in any form or fashion as it will end up doing more harm than anything good.

Let's figure out why you are not getting pressure first.

1- curious , how you can raise your 3-point without any pressure. Get a bucket and remove the plug where you connect the gauge, turn the tractor on and see if you can observe any oil gushing out.
2- We need to check your relief device, but let's do the first thing that I suggested and then we go to pressure relief.

Like I said, pump can be taken apart without damage to seal or gears but that is the last one you should do. Need to exhaust all other option and checks first.

Let me know if you get any flow. Remember, any flow and the pump is working but it does not mean it is making good pressure. Pressure is only made when the pump flow hits the spring in the relief device. For 1700 it is about 2100 psi.

Let me know.

 

[teachag295]

I bought my property of 2011 at the absolute bottom of the market. If it were not for that, and there is no way I would be able to afford it today. It appraised recently for three and a half times what we paid for it.

First of all, thank you so much for your for your help. I kept moving forward before I read your post today and ended up pulling the pump. I was not able to get to the shaft seal because I could not grab the gear. I figure I will have to do that at home with a strap wrench if I go further. All of the black rubber seals looked perfect and seemed pliable. One of the hard nylons seals was perfect but the other had some ears on it. I'm not sure that should interfere with anything though. It really looked like it got pinched during assembly. I will post a couple of pictures.

I could fairly easily throw the pump back on and do more testing. I did crank the tractor with throttle in the off position earlier on while I was trying to prime the pump with the port I attached gauge to open. The fluid did not come flying out like I would have expected but it did ooze out for a lack of better explanation. This was also only with a couple of cranks. The metal surfaces inside the pump seeing extremely tight so I really do not think there is any problem there. What do you think? Should I put the pump back on? Do you think that plastic piece is my problem?

 

[JC-jetro]

I am glad you bought your place then. I was in one of my in-law's place where you could sneeze and wake up the neighbors and they bought their place close to 1 million in Irvine. That is just way too confining for me. I can't even fit my tool boxes in his garage.. forget about tractor and stuff. well back to your rig.

1- there is a retaining clip that holds the the shaft seal. Don't force it, no strap is needed. Just need the spring clip pliers to remove the clip and then driving shaft will come right out even without shaft seal removal. Make sure to use hyd oil to keep everything lubricated. Your rubber seal looks okay and it was just like mine. The nylon one is the backer to keep the rubber in place. The nylon one does not do any sealing at all. Take an exacto blade and just carefully trim it. I hope you put witness mark on the 4 bushings. They best go where they came from so the wear pattern would not be disturbed. I don't see any scratches on the pump inner housing so gears should be okay too. Gears are a lot harder than the aluminum housing. I would put it all back together and as cleanly as you can. I don't think your pump is bad. Like I said before ,pump can be dissembled non-destructively which is a good thing. I think your issue is either on discharge pipe (smaller dia) or on suction pipe (larger dia). On smaller pipe , follow the routing all the way to right side of the tractor and you see the relief device. There is a spring a poppet valve that we need to check if it is working okay or not. On the suction side (larger dia) we need to make sure that you do not have any obstructions. The o-ring for the banjo connection can be reused. Put the pump together and try it out. I hope it comes back to life. if not , then we need to investigate further to find the culprit. Good luck and report back.

JC,

 

[teachag295]

I will put the pump back on Monday. I did not put witness marks on but I do know that I got him back where they came from. I was very methodical and how I laid everything out. One of my students who has been doing some of the work for me has a friend that apparently specializes in this vintage of tractor. He is pretty sure it is a valve or seal in the assembly under the seat. He called it the "top hat" and I guess when the cylinder is pulled out it kind of does resemble a top hat. I really do not think the problem would be on the discharge pipe. If it were leaking, we would have a mess. I did not pull the strainer out but I would not think it would be that either being how clean the fluid was when I drained it out and the fact that the strainer was brand new and it has not worked correctly since I replaced the fluid and strainer. That is really what does not make sense to me. It worked perfectly until I changed the strainer and the fluid. The only problem it had was the 3-point creeping down if you let it sit for a bit. That problem has been fixed with the new cylinder seal. I will keep you posted and probably pick your brain more as I move forward. As always thank you

 

[JC-jetro]

Ok. Sounds good. When I talked about discharge pipe , by no means I was talking about a leak at all. That discharge pipe goes to a pressure regulator. Pumps makes pressure there against a spring. It does have a by-pass to tank or diffy in form of a pressure pop-off . if for whatever reason the flow is diverted to the tank then you would not have any flow to the spool valve and then to 3 point. The pressure you will register would only be a static pressure due to the weight of whatever you have hanging from 3-point lift due to trapped oil in the lift piston. That pressure can vary all over the place statically and it is not pump operating pressure. Once you lift something with the 3 point, at the desired height all the pump flow then is diverted to diffy from the spool valve in neutral position. in that fix, once the tractor is off the pressure registered is just a static pressure.

JC,

PS . lift piston seal replacement is extremely simple and a great desing on 1000 series Ford tractors. The only thing to be sure is the seal orientation. The double lipped nylon seal has to face oil pressure or toward lift piston head.

 

[teachag295]

I put the pump back on today and got it seemingly primed. The hydraulics seemed even weaker than before. I would have to lift the hydraulic arms for the Piston to move and then they would stay up and lifted position. I pulled the gauge off of the test port and the oil barely trickled out at half throttle. It also was very foamy which seems to indicate to me that either it is not fully primed and or air is getting sucked in somewhere.

Thinking about this logically, the system was working fine before I changed the fluid and changed the strainer which had a hole ripped in the screen. I did not touch anything on the top end. This makes me think that the problem is more likely to be on the supply side of the system rather than the relief valves. I have checked the o-rings more than once on the suction line. As much as I hate to say it, I'm thinking that maybe I should pull the strainer and double check it to make sure it is not somehow clogged up. I pulled the suction line off of the strainer and looked at it from the inside but I could not see the screen part. I also thought about putting flex seal on the outside of all of the fittings. This would not be a long-term solution but when we were trying to troubleshoot hydraulics back in the day we would smear grease over fittings to try to pinpoint an elusive leak. This would be a similar concept. I feel like I either did not get a good seal on something on the suction side, somehow clogged up the strainer, or damage something else on that side. I also wonder if the pump even though it looks good is weak and possibly the previous owner tore a hole in the strainer to allow more flow. With no metal in the case or any other sign of damage in there, I have no idea how the strainer would get a chunk of the screen ripped open unless it was done intentionally. Also, having that opening in the screen would mean the pump would be subject to larger abrasive material.

Is my logic off base?

 

[JC-jetro]

I put the pump back on today and got it seemingly primed. The hydraulics seemed even weaker than before. I would have to lift the hydraulic arms for the Piston to move and then they would stay up and lifted position. I pulled the gauge off of the test port and the oil barely trickled out at half throttle. It also was very foamy which seems to indicate to me that either it is not fully primed and or air is getting sucked in somewhere.

There is a check ball and spring(check valve, on way flow) in the lift piston head. That would trap oil back in the lift cylinder. The only way 3 point arms drops is either check valve is not holding, lift piston seal is leaking or installed incorrectly or if lift spool valve is leaking.

Thinking about this logically, the system was working fine before I changed the fluid and changed the strainer which had a hole ripped in the screen.

Hole, if any in the strainer will only help with prime as there is less suction pressure loss. Saying that it can allow crud from the bottom of diffy floor to enter the suction pipe and in to the pump. on mine, I shop vacuumed the floor of diffy with a shop vac and with the strainer removed. I was able to get at least 2 quarts of oat meal looking crap from bottom of diffy collecting over perhaps 25 years. I would drain the hyd fluid in clean bucket and inspect the strainer and clean the floor of the diffy for sludge. since the oil is clean then straining it thru a coffee filter should clean it up. it will be slow. I will fix the hole in the strainer. if you decide to do so, take pics and post. There might be tell tale signs.

I did not touch anything on the top end. This makes me think that the problem is more likely to be on the supply side of the system rather than the relief valves. \

supply and relief are both on the same part of the system. There is particularly nothing significant with the pipe unless it has an obstruction. The issue is, like I said before the relief valve spring is what causes the system pressure. It can also divert the flow to diffy without going to 3-point if the poppet valve is stuck open due to crud collecting there. The relief valve need to be opened and inspected.

e I should pull the strainer and double check it to make sure it is not somehow clogged up. I pulled the suction line off of the strainer and looked at it from the inside but I could not see the screen part.

yup, agreed.

I also thought about putting flex seal on the outside of all of the fittings. This would not be a long-term solution but when we were trying to troubleshoot hydraulics back in the day we would smear grease over fittings to try to pinpoint an elusive leak. This would be a similar concept.

Suction line is under suction when the pump is running, it can only suck air in when the pimp is on giving some clue to foaming. it can leak a bit of oil while the tractor is parked if the hole is large enough or the flat gasket on the strainer is not sealing tight. I , personally would clean u the joint , smear a thin layer of RTV blue on the gasket, let it skin and dry out a bit and put it back together.

I feel like I either did not get a good seal on something on the suction side, somehow clogged up the strainer, or damage something else on that side

yup , like I suggested on previous paragraph

. I also wonder if the pump even though it looks good is weak and possibly the previous owner tore a hole in the strainer to allow more flow.

pump can be weak or seal due to slight damage to nylon backer is not sealing well to make pressure. Do you have any pic of the gears? pump is expensive to source. I will be attempting overhaul rather buying a new one. I still don't think we're where we should logically think of pump replacement yet.
pics

With no metal in the case or any other sign of damage in there, I have no idea how the strainer would get a chunk of the screen ripped open unless it was done intentionally. Also, having that opening in the screen would mean the pump would be subject to larger abrasive material.

pump suction cannot poke a hole in the screen. I think it was done intentionally. Any piece of metal in the pump would have certainly left tell tale signs. The interior case of the pump does not support it. It looked smooth. Any damage on the gears?

Is my logic off base?

Logic is okay, but always is a mix bag. My concentration more is in the relief valve area. I simply take the outer nut off the relif valve, put a shop towel ove the hole, put a bucket underneath and the run the tractor. You shoud have good steady flow(not a lot of pressure). it is messy but at least you can tell if the pump appears to work.

 

[teachag295]

I am attaching pictures of my relief valve and check valve. I disassembled them again to make sure that they were put in correctly and all the seals looked good. They're not many o-rings or seals in them but those that are there look good to me. The only question I have is with the relief valve the parts manual does not show a groove in the valve poppet. See the picture where I am pointing to it with a pick. I am not sure if there is supposed to be a o-ring there but I do not think one would fit clearance wise. Also the plug at the end of the housing is solidly stuck in there. I did not try to pound it out but I'm not sure how free that is supposed to be. That will be the second picture I am pointing to with a pick. Before I started pulling things apart, I turned it on and opened up the port. The first video shows no flow. It took about 20 seconds for flow to start which can be seen in the second video. As you can see the fluid is very foamy. There is no water in it. When the phone settles it looks brand new.

This leaves me thinking that it may be time to pull the filter housing to make sure that there is a good seal there. If it is not that then it has to be the pump unless I'm missing something on the top end. The rebuild kit for the pump runs around $160 I believe I found a place that sells new aftermarket pumps for $300. In Europe they sell these pumps for around $130.

Also you are absolutely correct that the suction did not damage the screen. It was mechanical damage of some sort. I do not know if something got in there and tossed into it by the gears in the transmission or if someone did it. I suspect that it was something that was thrown by the transmission because the housing did not look like it had ever been removed when I pulled it off. I do not know if I still have it sitting around in my shop somewhere. It was about 4 years ago. I will have to look and see what I can find. If I can find it I will post pictures.

Ford 1700

Ford 1700

Here is the outside of the relief valve that I believe it's the newer style than yours.

 

[teachag295]

Quick update. I let the tractor run for about 45 minutes at roughly half throttle with the draft lever in the down position. I was hoping that if there was air in the system, it would give it a chance to flush itself out. I did not open up the port to see the condition of the fluid again but I still did not have hydraulic power. Also an answer to the question from your last post, the gears look fine with really no noticeable where on them.

 

[JC-jetro]

Good pictures. I did go to NH website and looked at parts breakdown for the relief device. It is exactly the same as the picture you have. Mine was pre-1979 and is adjustable as the pics show. Yours use shims to add pressure by increasing the spring stiffness. what is a bit curious is the groove as the the website does not show that and on your s it is there and machined. I can't explain why they machine a groove that serves no purpose. I am sure I can get a o-ring out of my HF , metric rubber o-ring assortment to fit one in there. like yours, the NH website shows plug #5 next to 1A or the housing. Did you see that plug #5? I don't see it in your picture there.

Your oil does not look good on the video, is it all foamy or just dirty? did you use right hyd oil,Ford 134?

All the lift cylinder head check balls look ok and I don;t thing there is any problem there.

If it were me, I would take one of the shims out and then fit an o-ring on the groove and give it a try. Now I have not done that but can't see harm doing it specially since you are meticulous in disassembling the parts and putting back together.

If you decide to re-visit the suction screen then I would suggest cleaning the floor of diffy like the pic below suggests. The shop vac is connected to the any plastic bottle and it collects the crud without messing up your shop vac. do put a small hole in the handle so the vacuum would not collapse the bottle.

At the end hyd pump might be tired and needs replacement but you need to exhaust all options before going to last resort. if issue lies somewhere else then the pump might not be the cure, it is $$$ and not returnable. Let's just keep digging at it and hopefully we can find the problem.

Let's work on suction screen, cleaning the diffy and making sure you have the right oil.




PS. I just re-read your post. you addressed the question I had on the plug #5. It looks to me that the pump pressure should work against the plug to lift the popper against the spring. it might be e tight fit between plug and the housing but has to able to move. My version of it seems to be a bit easier to see how it works. Hyd pump does have an internal bypass to help lubricating gear shaft against the bushing. I am wondering if that causes the cavitation and foaming. Cavitation almost always happen on the suction side of the pump though. I am stomped a bit but keep trying like I suggested above. I kick myself for not buying extra pump overhaul kit and lift piston seal since it was cheap when I bought them.

PS2. is block #5 is the one you pointed on picture before the relief diagram? is there another plug on the right side of the relief device? wondering what block #5 purpose is. do you think the popper just rests against the block, flat surface to flat surface ? 3 holes that you see on top hat cover of the diffy is one pressure from pump, second is relief to the diffy and the 3rd is pressure to lift spool valve.

 

[teachag295]

The bulk of the oil and there is 134 fluid I got from the local New Holland dealership. It was 4 years ago and I do not have the original bucket and jug I bought but I am positive it was Ford 134. I did top it the other day with about 3/4 of a gallon of Tractor Supply UTF which says it is Ford 134 compatible. Either way we were having the problem before the tractor supply fluid.

I guess it could not hurt you try to throw an o-ring on that part. It would be a 5-minute job are way better. I just was giving students something to do when they replaced the radiator and such. What would be the benefit of taking one of the shims out? Wouldn't that do the opposite and further lower the pressure?

The fluid is not dirty. When I first saw it come out like that I thought it had water in it because it almost looks that way but when it settles there's no water in it. It is just foam also when I drained it out there was no water in it. The phone indicates to me that air is getting into the system somewhere I would think. I really wish there was a way for me to put a game right on the hard pressure discharge line before the relief valve or right on the side of the pump to test it. I may check to see what kind of thread the banjo bolt is and see if I can get a adapter too put the gauge right on the side of the pump. That would be very telling.

I like your suction bottle idea. I have an old shop vac that I just sacrificed for that purpose. I do not remember how well I cleaned the bottom of the differential. When I deal with something as dirty as this was I usually scrub it out with a little bit of diesel and really clean it and then flush it with some extra hydraulic fluid or oil depending on the application before I put the final fluid in but I do not remember if I did that in this case. I am kind of thinking I didn't because I was worried about whether or not I could get all of the diesel residue out and I didn't know what type of seals were in there that I could not see.

That is the plug I'm talking about. As you can see there is some don't get looks like between the assembly the plug is in and the plug that seems to be jamming it in there. It appears at the end of that piston looking part of the puppet rests against the plug which risks against the end of the cylindrical space that the assembly goes into. I'm not sure the purpose of the plug. Maybe I will try to press it out. I am not really tried beyond trying to push it out with a pick.

I am busy with FFA tri-tip dinner fundraiser today (life of an AG teacher) but I will drain it the fluid again and see where that takes us tomorrow most likely. Also for what it's worth, yesterday just to double check to make sure the pump was primed, I cracked the banjo bolt at the pump on the suction side and used a couple PSI of air pressure in the case until oil started coming out at the banjo bowl then closed the banjo bolt. I really appreciate all of your help. It is good to have someone to brainstorm with it understands what you're working with.

 

[JC-jetro]

The bulk of the oil and there is 134 fluid I got from the local New Holland dealership. It was 4 years ago and I do not have the original bucket and jug I bought but I am positive it was Ford 134. I did top it the other day with about 3/4 of a gallon of Tractor Supply UTF which says it is Ford 134 compatible. Either way we were having the problem before the tractor supply fluid.

I guess it could not hurt you try to throw an o-ring on that part. It would be a 5-minute job are way better. I just was giving students something to do when they replaced the radiator and such. What would be the benefit of taking one of the shims out? Wouldn't that do the opposite and further lower the pressure?

The fluid is not dirty. When I first saw it come out like that I thought it had water in it because it almost looks that way but when it settles there's no water in it. It is just foam also when I drained it out there was no water in it. The phone indicates to me that air is getting into the system somewhere I would think. I really wish there was a way for me to put a game right on the hard pressure discharge line before the relief valve or right on the side of the pump to test it. I may check to see what kind of thread the banjo bolt is and see if I can get a adapter too put the gauge right on the side of the pump. That would be very telling.

It is just odd, if it sucked air externally from the strainer housing where it connect to the banjo , then it shoud also seep out some when the tractor is off. Like i said it on my old thread, my pump selas and backer looked good then but my problem eneded being shaft seal. The thing is if it is indeed the shaft seal, it will leak out or suck air in inside the timing chain cover and the oil will go back to crankcase. I think it is quite difficult to tell few spoons of hyd oil in the crankcase oil. if you decide to do the pump overhaul do make sure to check the shaft seal. I have hard time to see the nylon seal that is chewed a bit can cayuse your problem. I think that was original when they put the pump together and had teh backet a bit misaligned.

I like your suction bottle idea. I have an old shop vac that I just sacrificed for that purpose. I do not remember how well I cleaned the bottom of the differential. When I deal with something as dirty as this was I usually scrub it out with a little bit of diesel and really clean it and then flush it with some extra hydraulic fluid or oil depending on the application before I put the final fluid in but I do not remember if I did that in this case. I am kind of thinking I didn't because I was worried about whether or not I could get all of the diesel residue out and I didn't know what type of seals were in there that I could not see.

funny story, I opened up the drain on the bottom of the diffy to drain the oil when I did it first time more than 15 years ago. Nothing came out. Opened up the drain at the transmission and it started draining. Took a thin long screwdriver and shoved it in the diffy drain and a bit of oil cam out. Then I made a hook with some stiff wire , shoved it in the hole and pulled it out. I kid you not , I pulled aomethng that lookd like a dead desiccated rat from the hole. That was what caused me to look inside and trey to clean the diffy. All crud builds there as it is area of low velocity and not much flow. I took two quarts of muck looking like thick oat meal. I only have done it once. Second oil change was what I pictured and the tractor was outside under the tarp while I was building my house on the farm and it picked up all that condensation in 9 months.

That is the plug I'm talking about. As you can see there is some don't get looks like between the assembly the plug is in and the plug that seems to be jamming it in there. It appears at the end of that piston looking part of the puppet rests against the plug which risks against the end of the cylindrical space that the assembly goes into. I'm not sure the purpose of the plug. Maybe I will try to press it out. I am not really tried beyond trying to push it out with a pick.

I think that plug is harderend strike surface for the poppet valve. When you dead head the pump by raising the 3 point to the highest point then the releif chatters and lets you know to lower the 3 point. That sound is caused by the poppet hitting that surface. On mine looks a bot different and conical shape poppet on mine hits the hardened seat and chatters.

I am busy with FFA tri-tip dinner fundraiser today (life of an AG teacher) but I will drain it the fluid again and see where that takes us tomorrow most likely. Also for what it's worth, yesterday just to double check to make sure the pump was primed, I cracked the banjo bolt at the pump on the suction side and used a couple PSI of air pressure in the case until oil started coming out at the banjo bowl then closed the banjo bolt. I really appreciate all of your help. It is good to have someone to brainstorm with it understands what you're working with.

Good job on FFA dinner, it is for the good cause. I am confident you will figure it out before too long. The key is to do the correct repair at the right cost. I personally would not buy a brand new pump that is most likely is China made and not as good as OEM. I would change just the consumable and wear items. Do check the shaft seal as it was my problem. I did put the new pump seal only because I had it and could do it.

 

[teachag295]

My oil originally was nowhere near as gunky as yours. It basically just had moisture in it. I'm still baffled as to why it would have worked fine until I changed the fluids and the filter. I will check the filter but as I think about it logically you are absolutely right that it should be leaking if there is a air leak on the suction line. Also, I checked and replaced the o-rings on the banjo bolts on the section side. Is it was leaking where the filter/strainer attaches to the side of the case, it would not suck air from there because that would be independent of the basket. I'm really thinking about just popping the top off of the case between the seat and the shifters to inspect down there.

There is a tapered surface on the puppet as well with mine so I am not 100% sure how that works. I still may see if I can free that plug up.

I am hoping at this point that the problem is the shaft seal. I feel like I am running out of other options. I am trying to visualize the path of the oil through pump to see what side the shaft seal would affect.

You are probably right about the OEM pump being better quality. It looks good inside so I may just like the bullet and do the seals if I cannot find anything section side that is problematic.

The correct repair for the correct price is the key. I'm getting tired of throwing money in nickel and dime quantities at this issue. 200 tri-tip cooked... Back to the grill...

 

[JC-jetro]

My oil originally was nowhere near as gunky as yours. It basically just had moisture in it. I'm still baffled as to why it would have worked fine until I changed the fluids and the filter. I will check the filter but as I think about it logically you are absolutely right that it should be leaking if there is a air leak on the suction line. Also, I checked and replaced the o-rings on the banjo bolts on the section side. Is it was leaking where the filter/strainer attaches to the side of the case, it would not suck air from there because that would be independent of the basket. I'm really thinking about just popping the top off of the case between the seat and the shifters to inspect down there.

If you are talking the top differential case where the seat is then on this model you do not need to do that for inspection of the seal of lift piston or rock shaft. They can be done from the front taking off the lift cylinder head.

There is a tapered surface on the puppet as well with mine so I am not 100% sure how that works. I still may see if I can free that plug up.

Tapered surface (conical in my case) mates with the seat to resist the flow with spring in the back pushing valve away from the seat. Pressure developed by pump flow against the tapered poppet lifts it up to maintain pressure that the spring stiffness causes. it is sort of safety pop off , lets say on a boiler. It opens up to protect boiler or pump in this case.

I am hoping at this point that the problem is the shaft seal. I feel like I am running out of other options. I am trying to visualize the path of the oil through pump to see what side the shaft seal would affect.

simple representation of how a gear pump works. gear pump is one type of positive displacement pump.

You are probably right about the OEM pump being better quality. It looks good inside so I may just like the bullet and do the seals if I cannot find anything section side that is problematic.

at this point it is the logical thing to do.

The correct repair for the correct price is the key. I'm getting tired of throwing money in nickel and dime quantities at this issue. 200 tri-tip cooked... Back to the grill..

Looks good on the grill. Bon appetito!! better progress on that front!

 

[teachag295]

I already had the cylinder out and replaced the piston seal. I'm talking about the horizontal plate right in front of that that would be between your knees. I'm thinking that would give me a view of the strainer / filter.

Thank you. I understand the concept of how a gear pump works but I was trying to figure out if there would be something or pressure against the shaft seal.

I will keep you posted.