Did I bust something on the loader hydraulics?

[JBF43]

JCoastie, the thread seems to have gotten confusing. As near as I can tell, half the replies are about the loader not being square after being stressed, and the other half are about why the FEL bucket bounces like it does in your video back in your opening post.

I'm not at all convinced that the two things are connected.
rScotty

I agree with rScotty. I think you have two separate issues going on and are unrelated to one another. One question in my mind is you said you have used the top of the loader for a seat when it was on the ground. When you sat on it, was the cutting edge of the bucket flat on the ground or raised a bit as it is in this video and just sitting on the back bottom edge of the bucket, thus creating a lever? Have you ever had the bucket sitting exactly this way before the incident and tried to rock it as you are now? Have you ever tested the cylinders for slack prior to this or could this be an ongoing situation that has been there for some time and just gone unnoticed as the tractor was doing everything you wanted so you never had a reason to look for this? I can understand the bucket no longer sitting flat on a smooth/ flat surface after smacking a tree with a nice long lever in the grapple, but still think the cocked bucket and the cylinder slack are two different issues.

 

[rScotty]

I agree with rScotty. I think you have two separate issues going on and are unrelated to one another. One question in my mind is you said you have used the top of the loader for a seat when it was on the ground. When you sat on it, was the cutting edge of the bucket flat on the ground or raised a bit as it is in this video and just sitting on the back bottom edge of the bucket, thus creating a lever? Have you ever had the bucket sitting exactly this way before the incident and tried to rock it as you are now? Have you ever tested the cylinders for slack prior to this or could this be an ongoing situation that has been there for some time and just gone unnoticed as the tractor was doing everything you wanted so you never had a reason to look for this? I can understand the bucket no longer sitting flat on a smooth/ flat surface after smacking a tree with a nice long lever in the grapple, but still think the cocked bucket and the cylinder slack are two different issues.

Just to be clear, I'm also thinking that the two issues are separate, but not convinced that the rocking of the bucket is a problem. The OP says he always lets the pressure out of the system completely when he shuts it down. And he also says it works and lifts fine.

I always did the same release of pressure with my first little compact tractor. Unfortunately, my time machine isn't working either, so like the OP I cannot say with absolute certainty that the rocking is normal, but I think it is. I think I remember doing that same move. Several other posters back on page one said the same thing. Billrog says all of his tractors do it.
I'm inclined to think that the rocking has nothing to do with the accident, and is entirely normal and if anything is related to how each of us shuts down our tractors and how/if the hydraulics system is depressurized.

The bent whateveritis is a different story. Sorry, but I hate the idea of levering a tractor hard enough to yield anything on the loader arms.....Especially trying to controllably yield a cylindrical shape in torsion. Yes, the loader was probably designed too lightly, but it is still hell for stout. What else might break if he does that?

Here's another idea..... What about just accepting that the arms are slightly different. You can't see it and can't even measure it. So concentrate on fixing the bucket tilt.
What about taking out the welder and adding a quarter inch of metal to the top edge of the left hand SSQA plate where it fits up into the "V" on the bucket? Or grinding that much off the right hand one. Could we make enough difference in those two plates to level out the bucket? If it didn't work, we are out a fairly inexpensive piece of steel. Nothing major.
rScotty

 

[JCoastie]

I am waiting to see the results of loosening all the loader mount bolts, leveling the boom arms (side to side) or torque tube, then tightening the mount bolts to torque spec.
OP said he did one side, then the other, but not both loosened at the same time.

That will happen tomorrow

 

[JCoastie]

to be clear, my issue is the unlevel lift arms, I thought the floppy hydraulics might have been a symptom/sign, but that floppiness has not returned, again, my main concern is the FEL is not level side to side.

 

[mkendrix]

Adjust rear tire pressure to make bucket sit level. If you can’t see damage, just use it. Cheap fix.

 

[JWR]

Adjust rear tire pressure to make bucket sit level. If you can’t see damage, just use it. Cheap fix.

Are you serious? I suppose if you have a flat on one side you let air out of the other side to even them up? Just pulling your chain...

 

[Vigo327]

to be clear, my issue is the unlevel lift arms, I thought the floppy hydraulics might have been a symptom/sign, but that floppiness has not returned, again, my main concern is the FEL is not level side to side.

Floppy hydraulics were related only insofar as the impact caused something to suck air. If it hasn't returned then whatever sucked air was not damaged in the event and doesn't suck air under normal operation, so that's good. You're left with the conceptually easier of the two problems, now.

Since the odds of this getting unbent 'professionally' are close to zero, I'd just be trying to bend it back the other way until it's 'good enough'. If the loader hydraulics can't do that on their own, I'd have to get more creative. But where precisely it is bent is not that important if you can't unbend it any more precisely than you can precisely locate it.. Got chain pockets all over a deep slab, a gantry crane, 50+ foot of chain, multiple large snatch blocks etc? The tractor equivalent of a frame machine? If not, you're gonna end up just sticking one side of the bucket under something you cant lift and just see if you can unbend the loader, so might as well skip straight to that. Assuming loosening all the attachment points and retightening with the loader level doesn't fix it (which would be nice, but im doubtful).

 

[RancherGuy]

What about just accepting that the arms are slightly different. You can't see it and can't even measure it.

Come on. Over a 6 foot width, one side is 2" higher and you say "good enough"? Surely you wouldn't personally accept that variance on your tractor. (reminder: see the OP posted photo of 02/21/22 at 6:42 PM)

What about taking out the welder and adding a quarter inch of metal to the top edge of the left hand SSQA plate where it fits up into the "V" on the bucket? Or grinding that much off the right hand one. Could we make enough difference in those two plates to level out the bucket?

Once you start making modifications to a design that is working, other issues will occur - such as being able to lock the attachment in place.

 

[JWR]

Come on. Over a 6 foot width, one side is 2" higher and you say "good enough"? Surely you wouldn't personally accept that variance on your tractor. (reminder: see the OP posted photo of 02/21/22 at 6:42 PM)


Well Rancher it may not be good enough but what do you suggest? The way he accomplished the spindled loader frame was using a very long log as a lever. He clearly does not have enough muscle in that tractor to "unbend it" with the tractor unless he stuck a very long log as a lever out the opposite side of the grapple and tried to duplicate the twist. Worse yet it took BOTH movement under power of the tractor AND momentum. If he tries to duplicate that he stands a chance of doing more damage than what he already has. In truth it is either that or the frame straightening shop (OR call it good enough.)

 

[RancherGuy]

Maybe the problem is my expectations. Every time I decide to accept a fault or flaw, it grinds at me, so where possible, I try to correct the root problem. In this case, I would (and have) wanted to correct the tweaked arms instead of modifying the bucket carrier, the mounting brackets or tire pressures.

My suggestion is to do what I did: bend the problem back to where it should be. I wrote about two options and you stated the solution yourself. Here is a summary of what I understand. He had a 16' tree in the grapple and one end clipped a tree. The tree would have been centered in the grapple. His tractor is nothing like mine, and should be physically easy to correct. Grapple another 16 footer with 12 feet hanging out the right. The arms will twist, but probably not enough to unbend the damage. Measure distance from tree tip to ground. Hang on the tip. Measure again to see if there is a change. If it changed, test to see if the problem is corrected. If not, either try more weight or use a longer tree. Small steps should enable a perfect solution.

 

[JWR]

Rancher, I'm with ya. That is exactly what I would do. Just don't know if the OP is willing to take a little risk of doing some other sort of damage. Your thinking of going incrementally and doing the reverse twist more and more until the problem is corrected should work without all that much risk.

 

[JCoastie]

Assuming loosening all the attachment points and retightening with the loader level doesn't fix it (which would be nice, but im doubtful).

Tried that this morning, no change

Maybe the problem is my expectations. Every time I decide to accept a fault or flaw, it grinds at me, so where possible, I try to correct the root problem. In this case, I would (and have) wanted to correct the tweaked arms instead of modifying the bucket carrier, the mounting brackets or tire pressures.

I'm the same way.

 

[JCoastie]

Rancher, I'm with ya. That is exactly what I would do. Just don't know if the OP is willing to take a little risk of doing some other sort of damage. Your thinking of going incrementally and doing the reverse twist more and more until the problem is corrected should work without all that much risk.

Tractor has to go to the dealer for some warranty work, so I'll have them look at while it's there and see of they have any recommendations. If not, I may strap it to one side of a tree, but I bet the relief valve will trip before things get straightened out.

 

[BeezFun]

Tractor has to go to the dealer for some warranty work, so I'll have them look at while it's there and see of they have any recommendations. If not, I may strap it to one side of a tree, but I bet the relieve valve will trip before things get straightened out.

We have a place near me that straightens frames on everything from snowmobiles up to 18 wheelers, If you could find a place like that near you they would have the equipment to do it right.

 

[Vigo327]

Tractor has to go to the dealer for some warranty work, so I'll have them look at while it's there and see of they have any recommendations. If not, I may strap it to one side of a tree, but I bet the relief valve will trip before things get straightened out.

You may be right about that, but those might not be the only hydraulics you own either. With the right rigging a bottle jack could be used to give the extra 'oomph', etc. As mentioned it's all about your comfort level in making it up as you go vs letting someone else who is more comfortable do it. I'm sure some people would put an impressive amount of measurement and math into it, but more likely than not whoever you might pay to fix it would use also be using simple methods and equipment to do the job just like people here are bringing up. No judgment on whatever you choose, i'm just encouraging you not to sell yourself short on what you might be able to pull off to fix this. If you let someone else do it, it should be in deference to their experience or some type of equipment you do not want to invest in, but not because you thought there was just no way in hell you could pull it off, because you probably can.

 

[RancherGuy]

... it should be in deference to their experience or some type of equipment you do not want to invest in, but not because you thought there was just no way in hell you could pull it off, because you probably can.

I am of the same opinion - try to fix it yourself.

With regard to taking it somewhere, I was also going to say that in general, dealers (of all kinds) focus on mechanics who are good at turning wrenches. They are hired to fix by replacing parts. A tractor dealer is likely to try to sell a new FEL arm for almost the same price as a new FEL. In comparison, a collision shop has employees who focus on returning an object to the original shape and appearance, without replacement. They practice their trade with bent steel every day.

 

[JCoastie]

going in Tuesday for warranty work and to look at the FEL, I'm hoping they see what I see, nothing bent and there is a problem with a ram or something that can be corrected without anything needing to be tweaked.

 

[airbiscuit]

I was carrying a 16' log in my grapple and I clipped a standing tree on the left side. It wasn't crazy hard, i.e. the tires didn't come off the ground, but the left side of the tractor dove a bit. After it was over the loader was no longer level side to side, the left side was down about an inch and a half to two inches. I guess I was hopeful it'd be a bent SSQA torque tube which seems fairly straight forward to correct, but the SSQA faces are square. I can see nothing bent visibly.
Looking at the loader arms, one is definitely higher than the other. In use, It seems I can lift to max height evenly (as best I can tell) and I can press down so the implement sits flat on the ground, but I can also dig in more on the left side since it is uneven. I really don't know what's wrong. After I shutdown, I always relieve the hydraulic pressure by lowering the 3pt hitch, and the loader arms, I also toggle the loader joystick to release any remaining pressure once completely shut down. We often use the bucket top as a seat, and it's always been solid. This morning I noticed this (shutdown overnight and not started this morning), there is no pressure in the hydraulic system, all 4 rams move when I step on the bucket. Any ideas, and it is related to my uneven issue?

Video of what I am seeing New video by JCoastie

That's a lot of leverage/force. I'm surprised the first 10 posts weren't - Pretty sure you bent/twisted something.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

small tractor loader arms bend pretty easily. Don't worry about it.

 

[Chainsaw.]

What Tx Jim said, that ain’t right, for a couple of reasons. As he stated the valve shouldn’t let fluid pass while its in the neutral position. Also, the cylinders should have enough drag on them just from the seals that they should take a bit of force to move in and out. But if that were happening they should also be slobbering fluid from being to loose. I’ve worked on alot of cylinders and that is very weird.