Did I bust something on the loader hydraulics?

[RancherGuy]

There very may well be air in the cylinders. This allows the rams to move because the air is compressable. But you have to put some work into compressing the air. Generally things are not all loosey-goosey like that appears to be ?????? Just saying.

gg

I don't believe it in an air issue theory. It would be too hard to get air into a closed system. The fluid resists movement.

There would have to be movement against the fluid to create a vacuum on the "other port" of a cylinder. Additionally at the same time at least one external seal would have to be damaged to let the air in. And from the looks of the movement (loosey-goosey, as you say), the cylinders would have to have a lot of air.

I also don't go with the theory of internal cylinder seal damage enough to allow that much movement. I think the fluid present has to be allowed to freely move throughout ALL of the lines, at the control block, as the OP mentions in the initial statements.

 

[JWR]

None of the theory's so far explain why ( 0p said ) hydraulics worked normal. With that much air they'd be awfully jerky.

Sure they do. If he just bent the loader frame the hydraulics would operate normally.

 

[JCoastie]

Does it do the same thing when it is running?

No, it is solid when the tractor is running, and it was solid overnight yesterday too (after using it)

I'm only on page 2 of this now 6 page thread, so bear with me while I catch up.

I did continue using the FEL and other than being misaligned, I've seen no other issues. I washed the tractor this morning, and can not see anything visibly bent, but one side of the loader arms does sit a bit higher than the other at all stages of movement that I can see. As far as the FEL mounted onto the tractor goes, everything is seated as it should be, but the loader arms are not at the exact same height with respect to each other.

 

[JCoastie]

Didn't the OP say that everything about the loader works normally except that it sits low on one side ??

Yes, that is correct.

 

[DieselBound]

Get it on a level and smooth surface and take various measurements on the loader. Measure at pin locations. Measure from back mount point to front pins. If the loader itself is racked you'll see it in the numbers. The mount/cradle could be messed up, but that would be a lesser probability.

I've kind of been down this road...

 

[RancherGuy]

Get it on a level and smooth surface and take various measurements on the loader. Measure at pin locations. Measure from back mount point to front pins. If the loader itself is racked you'll see it in the numbers. The mount/cradle could be messed up, but that would be a lesser probability.

I've kind of been down this road...

Yes I have also been on that road. I tried to measure, but it turned out to be indeterminate and very hard to do, because my left and right arms were not bent. At best, they were 1/8" off over the 104" as I recall.

What happened w/ mine is I ran the left bucket edge into a tree while shredding among trees - was looking behind. This resulted in the left bucket edge being 2 to 3" lower than the right (8 foot bucket).

I debated a solution in my head for over a month. Thought about a collision center. Then thought about chaining the tractor between trees with the rear to a tree and a winch attached to the low loader arm to 'pull it back out'. The tractor is 16,000 pounds and it would have to take a winch bigger than I was willing to buy. So for the size required I ended up taking a telephone pole and laying the butt end in the V between the bucket and both loader arms. Chained it very securely so it would not move in any direction. The pole became my "pry/bending" tool. Taking another [smaller] tractor, I pushed the top end of the telephone pole forward, thus in the opposite direction as the original impact.

It was very hard to determine how much force to use as well as if anything was corrected, so I repeatedly removed the pole and re-installed until the bucket was perfectly level again.

If you are wondering, the item that is actually damaged when a loader is tweaked is the large pipe that is welded between the arms. The impact twists it. This is why the end of one arm is lower than the other. The pipe has to be twisted back to the original position by an over-compensating reverse-twist to overcome the spring-back of the steel.

[edit: the pole was chained only to the back of the bucket; it did not contact the bucket cylinders, otherwise the cylinders might have been damaged. The bucket was used because it created a convenient near-vertical surface, plus it directly and conveniently connected to the loader arm pins]

 

[npalen]

The pipe has to be twisted back to the original position by an over-compensating reverse-twist to overcome the spring-back of the steel

The pipe has to be twisted back to the original position by an over-compensating reverse-twist to overcome the spring-back of the steel

As mentioned in another thread in regard to a twisted torque tube between the two SSQA ends, an option is to cut the tube and then weld back together with the loader arms aligned. Alignment could be achieved several ways with one of them being setting the bucket down flat with it and the tractor on a flat concrete slab. A portable band saw, if available, might be a choice for cutting as it would leave a narrow kerf to weld back together.

I am sticking to my theory of air in the system and it being a separate issue from the tweaked frame or mounts.
Let me ask this question: If you shut the tractor off with the loader in the air and then use the valve to let it down to the ground, where does the oil come from to fill the rod end of the two boom cylinders?

If you raise the loader boom up and then let it down with the valve spool fully shifted and it falls twice as fast as the pump can make up the volume, where does the oil come from to fill the rod end? Is the rod end drawing a vacuum (air) that remains when you then suddenly close the valve?

 

[JCoastie]

This is what it looks like on a flat surface

Across the lift arms, and the garage floor is level as checked prior with this same level and direction.

Tonight I crawled under it with a creeper, I still see nothing bent. I torqued all the loader bolts. (Tractor was split at the dealership for maintenance just before this happened) found 3 loader bolts that were not torqued to spec, they were more than snug, but not tight. I saw no signs of slipping. Torquing the bolts made no difference.
I loosened the right side loader bolts with the loader slightly off the deck and had my wife stand on the right side of the bucket. It didn't move much (I can bounce it up/down, she can't much), and I re-tightened the bolts. No change.
I loosened the left side bolts and then put a couple boards under the left side of the bucket, put enough pressure to slightly lift the tractor and re-tightened the bolts, there might have been a small amount of positive change.
Tomorrow (or Wednesday, ... have Dr appt tomorrow) I'll loosen both sides, then lift the tractor with the bucket and re-tighten, and see if that makes any difference.
Using my body weight in the bucket, there seems to be more bounce/flex in the right side, though I can't see if the rams are moving from that angle. It does visually seem that there is just flex in the loader arms. It "seems" the left side bounces, and the right side flexes if you can visualize that.
I should also mention, that before all the above, I ran the FEL to the upper limit, and to the lower limit lifting the tractor off the ground 10 times each to ensure any air would have been purged.

 

[npalen]

I don't believe that air would cause the twist you're describing.

 

[JCoastie]

Maybe carpenter's square on the boom arm to torque tube will show if you bent the loader?

had to use a block as a spacer due to the welds and braces, but it is square on both sides, and there is no visual sign of stress on the torque tube, not on the paint, tube or welds, not on any welds, paint or metal on the FEL for that matter.