I have owned my last 2 wheel drive pickup

[MossRoad]

Snow tires on the front only makes you car handle like an arrow with no feathers. The back end won't be stable.

Bruce

That's a pretty good analogy.

 

[dirttoys]

This thread was interesting enough, and I happened to have a truck to test with.

Truck 2014 half ton lariat eld rear, very plain, fairly new street tires:

Test area flat clayish pasture, fescue ~4 inches tall (I mow an area for a shooting range) ground soft frozen under 8" of snow over half inch of melt/freeze ice.

First, I am amazed at how well traction control and abs work MOST of the time, for this test (and doing donuts) they are useless. I am able to "disable" tc while in 2wd but, it kicks back in at a fairly low speed, so I couldn't simply floor it and see if I could eventually find the bottom and dig out, but I think I got useful results. The data bellow is with tc disabled as best you can, it does go away in 4 low.

1. 2wd eld (electric locking rear diff) off. If careful and slightly down hill you could start and move, and build momentum. If dead flat or slightly up hill only spin. If side hill would either spin or move based on if there was any up down grade to go with the side hill, either way would stay facing the same direction.
2. 2wd eld on. If down hill would start a little easier than no lock. Up hill would still only spin. If side hill rear tires would immediately seek the down hill direction.
3. 4wd (I used low just to completely eliminate tc). If careful it would start and track without spinning with or without eld on. If you hammered it, it would spin, and move straight without eld, and with eld it would bite better, but the rear would point down hill.

I have an 03 lariat as well, with limited slip and real tires, no drivers assist except abs.

I would have filmed the test but leadership was un-excited about holding the camera when it was cold, watching me try to brake the truck.

Definitive opinions:

1. Lockers have a limited use case, split mui (one side of boat ramp wet, dropped both right wheels in a muddy ditch) or drag racing. For people that didn't grow up driving rear wheel drive cars/trucks, it is probably a liability.
2. Drivers assist "stuff" stability control, traction control, anti lock breaks are probably a strong positive with a few exceptions, ya ought to be able to turn the darn stuff off when you want to do donuts though IF for some reason I was going to let leadership drive on bad roads, it would be the 14 and not the 03.

Best,

ed

 

[Raul-02]

Got stuck in the yard of the 100+ year old house my youngest is redoing. Wife and I were supposed to load aluminum siding that had come off the house to take to a recycling place. Truck is a 2014 Ford F150 with the towing package. I love it for driving, towing, and hauling stuff. But it can get stuck on wet grass. Tires have street tread and 43,000 miles on them and that didn't help. My Kioti was ten miles away. Nobody nearby was at home. Finally got hold of a friend who is a retired college professor/preacher/business owner. He has some heart issues and it scared me to call him. He pulled me out with a RAM 4wd. Never spun a tire.

I will be hearing about this for years.

RSKY

I had a deli, I was the delivery driver for a while. I drove an older Bmmr with a 70% posi rear. That car could go through the worst conditions snow, drifts, unplowed streets, uphill, you name it.
One wheel drive is useless.

 

[BravoXray]

So, you never take your truck offroad?

As far off road as it gets is driving through the back yard to the patio of my walk-out basement. I really have no reason or desire to take it off road. It does have a limited slip rear, so when it's slick, the rear end will slide around unless you're easy on the throttle.

As far as cost for 4WD, when I priced a 2020 F150 XLT, it was over $4500 for the 4WD package, over 10% of the truck cost. Then, besides the initial cost, 4WD adds another drive line, differential, 4 CV joints, engagement clutches and a transfer case that are going to need maintenance and repair sometime, and that is not going to be cheap. It also makes the truck 4-500 lbs heavier and is a pain in the ass to work around.
The 4WD trucks also set up higher and aren't as easy to get in and out of as I get older. I can open the door on my F150 and just slide right into the seat.

I can do just fine without all that.

Some people truly need a 4WD truck, but they are probably only 10% or less of the number who own 4WD vehicles.

 

[jyoutz]

Didn't know Dodge did it, but I had an early 90s Blazer with that arrangement. Never really had much of a problem with it. Remember having to replace a vacuum switch at some point, don't recall what the symptoms were, but don't think it prevented it from going into 4WD.

I work in a forestry program. The 1990s era Chevy/GM trucks had an issue with front axle engagement. We were always rescuing people stuck in the mud or snow in the woods because their front axle didn’t engage. There was a rubber boot protecting a solenoid that engaged the front axle. Whenever a stick punctured that rubber, water would short out the solenoid, preventing the axle from engaging. GM must have changed that design because we don’t see that issue anymore.

 

[deserteagle71]

Have you ever looked into OX Lockers? Aren't they electric?

Ox lockers are totally manual, last I checked. Cable activated - you yank a handle in the cab to activate the locker.

 

[deserteagle71]

This thread was interesting enough, and I happened to have a truck to test with.

Truck 2014 half ton lariat eld rear, very plain, fairly new street tires:

Test area flat clayish pasture, fescue ~4 inches tall (I mow an area for a shooting range) ground soft frozen under 8" of snow over half inch of melt/freeze ice.

First, I am amazed at how well traction control and abs work MOST of the time, for this test (and doing donuts) they are useless. I am able to "disable" tc while in 2wd but, it kicks back in at a fairly low speed, so I couldn't simply floor it and see if I could eventually find the bottom and dig out, but I think I got useful results. The data bellow is with tc disabled as best you can, it does go away in 4 low.

1. 2wd eld (electric locking rear diff) off. If careful and slightly down hill you could start and move, and build momentum. If dead flat or slightly up hill only spin. If side hill would either spin or move based on if there was any up down grade to go with the side hill, either way would stay facing the same direction.
2. 2wd eld on. If down hill would start a little easier than no lock. Up hill would still only spin. If side hill rear tires would immediately seek the down hill direction.
3. 4wd (I used low just to completely eliminate tc). If careful it would start and track without spinning with or without eld on. If you hammered it, it would spin, and move straight without eld, and with eld it would bite better, but the rear would point down hill.

I have an 03 lariat as well, with limited slip and real tires, no drivers assist except abs.

I would have filmed the test but leadership was un-excited about holding the camera when it was cold, watching me try to brake the truck.

Definitive opinions:

1. Lockers have a limited use case, split mui (one side of boat ramp wet, dropped both right wheels in a muddy ditch) or drag racing. For people that didn't grow up driving rear wheel drive cars/trucks, it is probably a liability.
2. Drivers assist "stuff" stability control, traction control, anti lock breaks are probably a strong positive with a few exceptions, ya ought to be able to turn the darn stuff off when you want to do donuts though IF for some reason I was going to let leadership drive on bad roads, it would be the 14 and not the 03.

Best,

ed

How does everyone get to drive only "flat" terrain?

I've used the locker on my F150 numerous times - but it has always been in situation like crossing deep ditches at an angle where one front tire and the opposite side rear tire is pretty much hanging in the air. Without a locker I wouldn't move.

 

[scaredychicken]

RSKY - I agree, this current 2wd truck that I have will be my last 2wd.

I have a '93 Silverado C2500 Z71 that I bought seven years ago for $2500. It is low Kms, and in great shape, it owes me nothing. I can't even think about replacing it yet (we have a 4x4 SUV for most winter driving). Rarely do I get stuck, but it has happened. I am in the process of buying new tires for it ... All Terrain, 10 ply, Light Truck knobby tires, rated for every season. That alone should be a significant improvement, on the almost 20 yr old all-season tires that are on it now. The Old Body Style (OBS) trucks are retaining their value at this point, so I will hang on to it for now.

I also have a project truck (son hit a deer / tree), that I plan on repairing and returning to the road ... 2004 Mazda B4000, 4x4, 4L, v6, in otherwise good condition.

If the truck is low milage,you like it and are on a budget I suggest installing a locker to see how you like it. I've driven out countless times when a couple of guys stood on the rear bumper.

not sure what you mean by "installing a locker" ? I'd like to look into that. Thanks for any other details that you may have.

 

[Mtsoxfan]

Snow tires on the front only makes you car handle like an arrow with no feathers. The back end won't be stable.

Bruce

Unscientific experiment... playing in snow. Snow tires have grip going forward. When you do donuts, they have very limited traction going sideways. Regular tires have limited traction going forward, but doing donuts, they have better traction going sideways. So, on fwd, Regular tires on rear can give better traction once car starts going sideways. All snows can go sideways too.
Maybe not ideal to have 2 snows. But all is not lost if you do.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

Ox lockers are totally manual, last I checked. Cable activated - you yank a handle in the cab to activate the locker.

Okay, that's the one that wont work with a 9 inch because they send you a rear cover. It won't work in my old hi boy either because it's a coarse spline Dana 60. I wanted to update the front and rear anyway.

 

[ovrszd]

Have you ever looked into OX Lockers? Aren't they electric?

Ox Lockers are mechanical, cable operated.

Eaton makes an electric locker. Have one in my Jeep YJ.

I believe Auborn makes an electric as well?

 

[ovrszd]

How does everyone get to drive only "flat" terrain?

I've used the locker on my F150 numerous times - but it has always been in situation like crossing deep ditches at an angle where one front tire and the opposite side rear tire is pretty much hanging in the air. Without a locker I wouldn't move.

They don't live in Northern Nevada or Northern Missouri!!!!

 

[ericm979]

I believe that the reason pickups don't have AWD is because the poor weight distribution would make handling worse than tricky... much the same as why they recommend studded tires on all wheels if you have a front wheel drive vehicle.

AWD works ok with forward weight distribution.

I had an AWD truck: a 1999 GMC C3, the forerunner to the Denali truck but without the rear wheel steering. GM used a viscous coupling as the center diff. It handled really well for a truck- far better than my 2016 Tundra 2wd. I don't know how well it did on snow or off road as I never took it on anything challenging. It was designed as a street truck and did that well.

We have a couple AWD VWs, both of which are basically front wheel drive cars with added drive to the rear. They handle well too, if you drive them like front wheel drive cars. But even with the 300hp one there is no torque steer or breaking the fronts loose like there would be with a fwd car with that much power.

 

[JLH4]

Has anyone driven the 2022 Hyundai Santa Cruz? It is a small AWD pickup with 3500 lb. towing, which is all I need. I have a 4wd Tacoma TRD Off-Road right now that is very good, but I think I have filled the bed full maybe two or three times and have never come close to the max. towing weight. I pull a single axle trailer for bigger stuff. I think that Santa Cruz will be my next pickup or one like it if it gets good reviews.

 

[MossRoad]

I found this video of a New Process 246 transfer case that is the same as what's in my 2003 Suburban with Auto4WD, 2H, 4H, and 4L.

Shows how in Auto4WD the electronic sensors detect different shaft speeds for the front and rear and then engages the fork to apply pressure to the clutch pack to allow slip between front and rear as needed based on shaft speed, VS how in 4WD, the fork just pushes the clutch pack fully and locks it in place, allowing no slip in the transfer case between front and rear.

 

[deserteagle71]

not sure what you mean by "installing a locker" ? I'd like to look into that. Thanks for any other details that you may have.

Lots of aftermarket lockers available out there - but it all depends on which rear axle you have as to which one you can have installed. Some are air-operated (require a small compressor), some are electric, and some manual. You'll have to do your research - and even if you do your own installation, they ain't cheap.

I had ARB brand air lockers installed front and rear in my van - made it a whole bunch better vehicle out in the rough stuff.

 

[ovrszd]

Lots of aftermarket lockers available out there - but it all depends on which rear axle you have as to which one you can have installed. Some are air-operated (require a small compressor), some are electric, and some manual. You'll have to do your research - and even if you do your own installation, they ain't cheap.

I had ARB brand air lockers installed front and rear in my van - made it a whole bunch better vehicle out in the rough stuff.

I run a Detroit locker in the front of my buggy. On throttle it locks up. Off throttle it unlocks. Works very, very well and I never hear it engage/disengage.

There are a LOT of varieties. And a locker is way more productive than a limit slip. Both have their place.

As you said, they ain't cheap. I paid $750 for the electric locker in my Jeep TJ Dana 44 rear axle. They are twice that much for a ton axle such as a Dana 60 or GM 14 bolt.

 

[MossRoad]

When I was a kid, only 1 person in the neighborhood owned a pickup truck. Pretty much every dad on the block would borrow it from the neighbor at least once a year, to haul stuff too big for the station wagons. As I recall, it was either Chevy or GM, 4x4, with a 3 on the tree manual transmission. That's the first time I recall seeing a 3 on the tree. Then in 1970, my dad bought a Nova with 3 on the tree.

Anyhow, the point I was trying to make is that back in the 60's-80's it was rare to see a 4x4 pickup in town.

 

[Jstpssng]

When I was a kid, only 1 person in the neighborhood owned a pickup truck. Pretty much every dad on the block would borrow it from the neighbor at least once a year, to haul stuff too big for the station wagons. As I recall, it was either Chevy or GM, 4x4, with a 3 on the tree manual transmission. That's the first time I recall seeing a 3 on the tree. Then in 1970, my dad bought a Nova with 3 on the tree.

Anyhow, the point I was trying to make is that back in the 60's-80's it was rare to see a 4x4 pickup in town.

The first winter I had my new 1983 Ranger some friends wanted me to go cross country skiing with them. I bought a pair of skiis, and let them navigate as we went to the ski area. I knew that we were in the wrong place as soon as we pulled into the parking lot... I was driving the only pickup in the lot. We were at the downhill slopes, and needed to be on the x-country trails a few miles away.

. Drivers assist "stuff" stability control, traction control, anti lock breaks are probably a strong positive with a few exceptions, ya ought to be able to turn the darn stuff off

I hate all of the above, especially ABS. If one side of the vehicle is on snow and the other is on pavement you may as well not have brakes. After doing about $350 worth of front end damage -at 2002 prices- because my '98 GMC wouldn't stop, I disabled it. It's amazing how much better it stopped in snow; rather than rolling along the top like a kid's sled, pumping the brakes would allow the tires to cut through the snow to the pavement and stop.
One day I was driving through town and a motorist was waiting to pull out of a parking lot. He made eye contact, and pulled right out in front of me. I was into the brakes and stopped in less distance than the tables we learned in driver's ed. With ABS I'd have had hit him for sure. Because it wasn't working I avoided the accident but if I had hit him, I would have been considered at fault.

I couldn't begin to guess how many times I've been negotiating deep snow and had the TC kick in while trying to negotiate a hill.
When that happens you may as well get out the snow shovel.

 

[MossRoad]

I'll take electronic stability control all day long. I'm convinced it saved my kid's life.