Can someone explain to me why supersonic business flight didn't work out?

[Sigarms]

Big local news is Greensboro's PTI airport has secured a new business building that is supposed to bring jobs.

North Carolina chosen for supersonic passenger jet plant

RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) — A Colorado-based aviation company announced Wednesday that it has chosen a North Carolina airport as the manufacturing site for next-generation supersonic passenger jets. If successful, the

journalnow.com

Perhaps it's just the pessimist in me, but reading this article really makes it sound like it's going to flop.

I'm old enough to remember the Concord. Fuel consumption I'm guessing was it's demise.

What's going to be different about this plane?

It just seems like everything on this (per brining in this aircraft company and giving them money) is built on a house of cards, as they actually haven't even made one aircraft yet.

 

[MossRoad]

Big local news is Greensboro's PTI airport has secured a new business building that is supposed to bring jobs.

North Carolina chosen for supersonic passenger jet plant

RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) — A Colorado-based aviation company announced Wednesday that it has chosen a North Carolina airport as the manufacturing site for next-generation supersonic passenger jets. If successful, the

journalnow.com

Perhaps it's just the pessimist in me, but reading this article really makes it sound like it's going to flop.

I'm old enough to remember the Concord. Fuel consumption I'm guessing was it's demise.

What's going to be different about this plane?

It just seems like everything on this (per brining in this aircraft company and giving them money) is built on a house of cards, as they actually haven't even made one aircraft yet.

One of the reasons it didn't work out:

U.S. law forbid sonic booms over land. So the supersonic Concord had to start slowing down way out over the Atlantic, and land only at airports on the east coast. Likewise, it had to get out over the Atlantic before it could accelerate past the speed of sound. That made it fuel inefficient for a good portion of the trip.

It was also a fuel pig. It used more gallons per mile than a 747. So while it saved time, it ate money.

 

[ericm979]

Crashes and mechanical problems also had something to do with ending the Concorde.

"Boom" is not a good name for an airplane company.

 

[MossRoad]

What's different now? I believe they are trying to make that plane into a 'quiet' sonic boomer. They're trying to get it down to if you were in your house and heard a car door slam outside VS thunder. If they get it down that low, they may be able to fly it over the continental U.S.

 

[Sigarms]

What's different now? I believe they are trying to make that plane into a 'quiet' sonic boomer. They're trying to get it down to if you were in your house and heard a car door slam outside VS thunder. If they get it down that low, they may be able to fly it over the continental U.S.

I guess if that's the case, it behooves NC to push for this legislation. Then again, now it's a US manufacturer (vs the Concorde sp?), perhaps everyone will be on board.

That legislation seems to be a big hurdle if this investment is home run or it's a dud.

 

[RoyJackson]

Also, the Concorde didn't really hold that many passengers...and, the price of the tickets was something very well off people could afford...due to, among other factors, the cost of manufacturing the big bird (as well as fuel, which isn't going to get cheaper).
Although I expect the costs of manufacturing to come down (thus, reducing ticket prices)...and the price of manufacturing can only come down by producing more aircraft...this will take, IMHO, decades.

 

[Moxie 15]

Crashes and mechanical problems also had something to do with ending the Concorde.

There was a total of one crash invoving a Concord. It was in Paris when the plane hit a piece of debris dropped by another plane that caused a fire and crash in a residential area of Paris.

The fuel problems were caused by the late 1960's design of the engines. When started fuel costs had little impact, by the time the plane flew fuel costs was a major concern.

limited seating, and by the last few years even smaller passenger numbers were always a problem.

Aircraft age was another problem they were simply wearing out

As to the business class question; it was never affordable except in extreme situations that now can be far easier and cheaper to handle via internet

 

[N80]

The other issue with the Concord was, as I understand it, that it never would have been...or could have been.... a viable business venture without the level of government subsidy it got from France and England. Without that it was a no go in terms of ROI. If the project had relied on private or corporate capital alone it never would have gotten past the initial concept. And since governments run things sooooo well..............the end was predictable.

 

[s219]

That is true, the Concorde was subsidized by French and British governments. Could never have been a straight commercial venture. I worked on a program in the 90s to develop a US supersonic transport as part of the NASA HSR program with Boeing and Douglas. It eventually got cancelled because the $$ didn't make sense.

 

[RSKY]

Too much expense for too little gain. BUT it might be feasible on a route like LA to Sydney or something like that. If you could cut an eighteen hour flight to nine hours it might be commercially acceptable.

RSKY

 

[Sigarms]

The other issue with the Concord was, as I understand it, that it never would have been...or could have been.... a viable business venture without the level of government subsidy it got from France and England. Without that it was a no go in terms of ROI. If the project had relied on private or corporate capital alone it never would have gotten past the initial concept. And since governments run things sooooo well..............the end was predictable.

Well, apparently this project is getting an economic boost from NC LOL

I'm just wondering with the seating capacity, the price of fuel, the sonic boom legal issue, exactly why this seems like a viable option to invest state money in for economic growth?

When I read the newspaper article, I was just scratching my head why this is such a great idea? I get it, go faster. I get the fact that there are some long flights, but I'm also just happy to get there in a day LOL

 

[mikester]

Pretend this forum is a supersonic plane.

Please pay me $10,000 for each of your posts.

 

[coldsteelva]

United Airlines is a Customer

 

[Jims1025R]

Aside from one crash, the Concorde had a great safety record. The cost of that safe transport was incredible, when compared to any other means of transport. Fuel cost, and the very frequent need for engine overhaul - they worked great, but not for long!

More basically, air drag increases as a square of the speed. So, twice as fast, four times the drag, which must be overcome with for times the power (so heavy, expensive, fuel consuming engines). To reduce this effect, fly much higher, thinner air = less drag (and you can go direct a lot - no traffic!) But it takes a lot to get up there, and cabin structure and reliability must be much greater = more cost and weight to continue to provide a safe cabin atmosphere against the much greater pressure differential.

When I drive my diesel VW on the highway (which costs pennies a miles), I can notice the improved fuel economy resulting from driving more slowly. I budget a little more time for my travel, go more slowly, and get there for less cost, and still on time. I sure don't need to pay much the higher cost, and carbon footprint to get across the world in half the time. The military may need supersonic aircraft, civilians don't - no one's time is that valuable!

 

[the old grind]

What Roy mentioned, not enough travelers would pay roughly double to arrive in roughly half the time. Nobody makes money on empty seats. The YB 70 project was dropped for good after two were built and one had crashed, killing the crew.

The surviving example of that is in Dayton on display at the AF museum. In the '60s we assembled model kits of what we thought was the future when it was already an anachronism.

SAM and ICBM advances had diminished the advantage of high altitude military flight. Remember that technology is driven by profit potential and sold to us on a 'newer is better' wow-factor. btw, how's that 5-blade razor working for ya while saving up for a self-driving truck?

 

[Egon]

Economics!

 

[the old grind]

The reality vs the dream.

 

[dodge man]

To be clear, the Concorde crash occurred when the plane blew a tire on take off, seems like it hit something on the runway. The tire location on that design was such that debris hit the wing, broke a lot of key components including a major fuel leak,and brought the plane down. I think there was a fear of this occurring again among other economic concerns that made the plane no longer viable.

 

[RoyJackson]

To be clear, the Concorde crash occurred when the plane blew a tire on take off, seems like it hit something on the runway. The tire location on that design was such that debris hit the wing, broke a lot of key components including a major fuel leak,and brought the plane down. I think there was a fear of this occurring again among other economic concerns that made the plane no longer viable.

With newer materials, composites especially, could reduce weight and the possibility of punctures.
But, fuels costs and high consumption...just don't see much benefit in supersonic commercial aircraft

 

[MossRoad]

With newer materials, composites especially, could reduce weight and the possibility of punctures.
But, fuels costs and high consumption...just don't see much benefit in supersonic commercial aircraft

You wouldn't think there'd be a market for private jets either, but come to any college football town airport on a Saturday in fall and you'd be amazed at how many private jets there are.

I personally know of people that bring their kids to college in the fall, home and back to school at Thanksgiving and Christmas, spring break and back, and then home in the spring. That's 8 trips on a private jet for one kid (and maybe a couple of their friends) and $6-10K per trip. Then throw in a few football game weekends for 6 more trip legs. It's almost shocking. That's $140,000 on transportation for one family. And who knows where else they go without the kid??