Kioti to Kubota Model Comparison

[kantuckid]

I'm thinking about a means to gain a bit stronger FEL w/o moving up too far in tractor cost or size. I'm currently looking at a 2016 Kubota MX4800 with similar hours and condition (nice!) to my 2010 Kioti DK35SE, both are geared. At first glance on Tractordata.com the Kubota has some advantages but when I researched engine torque, my Kioti has bit more than the Kubota which has 11 more hp at 38 vs. 49-so not much gained there.
The loader figures are hard to compare for me in real world use. I'd also being going from a non-regen tractor to re-gen which has it's anecdotal stories.
Kubota has an obviously stronger following overall but I've liked my two Kioti's. My current tractor has been down since April for what turned out yesterday to be a clutch replacement which lead to my looking at tractors.
Your thoughts?

 

[jeff9366]

In my opinion unless compact tractor weight increases at least 50% you will not notice an increase in tractor capability in the real world. An increase of 10%-15%-20% in loader specs or torque specs is meaningless.

Others here will differ but that is my opinion having owned three compact tractors and operated others for short periods for neighbors.


I am a proponent of the KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID principle regarding tractors. I prefer three cylinder diesel engines over four cylinder diesel engines.

 

[Roadworthy]

If your goal is increased loader capability tractor torque and horsepower don't mean much. Hydraulic flow and pressure would be the determining factors here and of course a heavier tractor, too. I don't know about Kioti but Kubota will use the same loader on several members of a tractor series or family. The loader capabilities (lift power, etc.) will vary somewhat depending on the tractor. I have an L2501 with the LA525 loader. They put the same loader on the L3901 but due to the larger hydraulic pump it has more capability on the larger tractor. This may not help but should give you some food for thought. Oh, and when I purchased my tractor I stayed with the smaller L2501 to avoid potential future issues with a tractor having a computer and a DPF. Like Jeff, I prefer to keep my tractors simple.

 

[jeff9366]

My current tractor has been down since April for what turned out yesterday to be a clutch replacement which lead to my looking at tractors.

From anecdotal evidence on T-B-N and my local Kubota dealer too, the operating cost of an HST or shuttle shift transmission equipped tractor is less than the operating cost for a traditional clutch & gear tractor, especially if the traditional clutch & gear tractor is driven by a changing cast of poorly trained employees. Clutch replacements are the incremental cost.

 

[kantuckid]

Well, I'm not poorly trained and have zero employees so there's that part done with. I've had old style geared tractors and more recently had two Kiotis-DK40 and current DK35SE that are clutched shuttle shifts and I like that type.
50% in weight change is a quantum leap in size. I do buy the 10-15% loader spec as not so much to get out my billfold.
Back to my comparison of two shuttle shift tractors...

 

[DieselBound]

In my opinion unless compact tractor weight increases at least 50% you will not notice an increase in tractor capability in the real world. An increase of 10%-15%-20% in loader specs or torque specs is meaningless.

Others here will differ but that is my opinion having owned three compact tractors and operated others for short periods for neighbors.


I am a proponent of the KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID principle regarding tractors. I prefer three cylinder diesel engines over four cylinder diesel engines.

I'll agree on the loader spec bump, but 50% weight increase? The OP is concerned with loader capacity. Weight is an essential for ground engagement work. For loader work it's an issue of ballast/counter weight, which can be accomplished with ballasted rear tires and or a heavier implement on the rear.

 

[DieselBound]

kid, Kubota's loader specs tend to be geared toward speed, whereas Kioti is more toward weight. Kubota's loaders will operate quicker and do so with a bit less weight. Kioti will handle more weight, but more slowly.

I went with Kioti because I wanted the higher loader capacity (Mahindra is even higher, but they give up speed). Pretty much can get the same amount of work done in the same amount of time, though more trips tends be a little less efficient.

Working fast with smaller tractors is kind of fun (my B7800 certainly is). Working fast in larger tractors can add to the sense of danger (think bull in a china shop)!

 

[kantuckid]

Those points I can agree with. This is a conversation after all. I have zero interest in loader speed, maybe if i was a forklift operator trying to catchup in a factory-but I am far, far from that senario. I want to work slow & safe and be able to lift fairly heavy logs at times.
Update of sorts- I fetched my repaired tractor today (been dead since late April) via an hour rollback trip-$100 up, $100 back. We unloaded my DK35SE @ a nearby school parking lot just now, with the entire clutch assy having been replaced. It is much stiffer and has a marked friction point when I moved it to my barn. It runs like new, looks nearly new and been paid for as long as I've owned it. I have zero interest in any and all new tractor deals. I saw one 2013 Kubota, private sale with 3 hours on it but no loader and the one I priced was nearly $7,000 new from the mfg. so that doesn't ad up for me. Honestly I really liked my old DK40 but it had no FEL, so it had to go.
After getting back in that seat I'm not as enthused about spending money on another machine, especially one with re-gen to meet Tier4 emissions. I'm still comparing but at 365 hours with a new clutch and fluids I may just change tires and put fluid in my tires and call it my last tractor-or tractor for now at least?

 

[IndyJay]

@kantuckid
Glad you got your tractor back!

 

[yanmars]

A bit unusual for a clutch to go out with that low of hours, what caused it?

 

[kantuckid]

It was probably a combo of several uses. I had one large SYP tree that I had to fall down hill and was asking the tractor to make a very hard pull on that tree required some serious efforts. Another was when using the bucket on the edge of a woods road digging soil for fill material I got pretty aggressive and noticed the clutch friction lining smelling. I was only using the buckets edge to catch maybe 10-12" of mostly loose weather material then gradually would gather enough to fill the bucket for a trip to a nearby build site. Not unusual use really.
In neither instance did I feel like I was being abusive to the tractor at all, just hard work IMO. My main uses are maintaining a 1/2 mile steep private road using a Landpride box scraper, a small pasture I bushog annually, garden prep and around my self-use only WM sawmill logs and lumber and skidding logs for my own use.
I bought it @ 120 hours from a non-farmer Highway Patrolman in KS who maintained a short driveway and some light construction use such as the large pole building it was stored in to prep the concrete pad, etc.. The guy waxed and babied it as it were. I also store it inside and as a retired pro mechanic ex-auto tech shop teacher, helo mech, late a motor pool mechanic and industrial and car and MC mechanic I'm very good to my machines.
The clutch on this Kioti is highly generic and crosses over into many, many brands in that size clutch assy. The guy I chose to replace mine is a 74 yr old retired lifetime JD mechanic and the do custom work in his shop such as huge supercharged competition tractors, injection pumps, many large 100hp+ farm tractors around there-so on.
He had a camshaft in his lather when I was last there-serious mechanic. He put back in my Kioti a clutch disc with friction pads vs. a circular friction disc. He says they are far better friction wise and longer service life. He also never uses rebuilt clutch parts as he's seen too many early failures, etc.. There are clutch parts assemblies on ebay for ~ $100, Chinese at that. These were pricey USA parts from sources he has used for years.
I expect a parts mark-up to retail and him to profit when I ask for a turn-key job as this was.
I was charged $900 labor for clutch replacement which included a fluid service engine oil & hydraulic-I had the filters & oil. This tractor requires hood and fuel tank removal so even more work than some.
When I moved the tractor from a school parking lot where we off loaded it, the change in clutch function was noticed immediately from even when I bought it at 120 hours! This new clutch is far stiffer pressure on the pedal! It also bites firmly but it's new of course. A huge difference and no softness whatsoever. It always pulled well before until it didn't. The old friction disc was badly burned and had worn to the rivets. The pressure plate was all intact but center springs were weak. Current hours are @ 365- maybe a bit more than I'd stated previous, so I've put 225 hours on it since 2017 when I bought it in KS.
yanmars: How long do you say a clutch should last on a 38hp utility tractor?

 

[kantuckid]

@kantuckid
Glad you got your tractor back!

I am too! My lifestyle is wrapped around my tractor much of the time. Several gully washers lately has our main road and another badly eroded.

 

[kantuckid]

My "today's" mentality leans toward keeping my Kioti tractor with a near future tire change and weight fluids in them. I use a back weight from Titan Implements but really need tire fluid too.

 

[DieselBound]

I view everything as a tool. If a tool is still viable then I keep it: which is why I still have my B7800 (different tools for different jobs); I'm fortunate to be able to afford to keep two tractors, for now...

Unless one buys new one is only looking at something with unknowns. Better off repairing what one has, as you KNOW what you have: I do this with my cars (21 and 18 years old). Not worried about Tier IV: my Kioti has has zero issues engine-wise or HST-wise, and it's now 675 hrs and closing in on 5 years; I figure I"ll wear out before it does.

Tire ballast is more than worth it. It was several years before I had that done with my B7800: had someone come and do it. Top priority when I got my NX5510: I can still get tippy with it unless I also have a big implement on the back- loader/hydraulics are pretty strong, 2,700 lbs lift capacity.

 

[Midniteoyl]

The old friction disc was badly burned and had worn to the rivets. The pressure plate was all intact but center springs were weak.

Pretty sure one of the complaints on the Kioti clutches a few years back was due to one of their suppliers shipping them weak ones..? Dunno, something I thought I read, but looks like you found one of them.

 

[kantuckid]

Get this: I just went down and attached my 6' box scraper and brought my 1/2 mile of private, steep, gravel road back to smooth and another even steeper gravel road that climbs toward the ridge on the back side of our property where I log and have a build site too. I was done with the main road which as said is quite steep, about the limit of what an UPS truck would do and when I began on the woods road, I was having trouble carrying rock back up hill in the LandPride's box from a number of gully washers during my tractors dead spell. I stopped and lo and behold I'
d done the first main road in 2wd! and was still in 2wd! I never usually change into 2wd given I live in E KY where nothings flat. (my county has two highway straights and both are named) I switched to 4wd and it did whatever I asked of it. The new clutch had made enough difference to have me unaware that I was working in 2wd. That alone tells you the new clutch holds better.
Maybe I did have a weakish clutch but honestly that tractors been earning it's keep! BTW, damn it's hot!

 

[Midniteoyl]

Yeah, sounds like you had one of the weak ones. Probably wont need a new clutch ever now

 

[DK35vince]

How long do you say a clutch should last on a 38hp utility tractor?

Generally a clutch should last thousands of hours.
I have 2340 hours on my 2001 DK 35. Never needed the first clutch adjustment yet.

 

[TmbrWlkr]

Kantuckid - Just an FYI - Kubota loader model#s are their rated lift capacity in KGs. My (on order) DK4510 will Way out lift Kubota L4701!
HP TP HP Kubota comes up significantly behind Kioti on FEL specs

 

[kantuckid]

What's your personal take on buying and using a new DK4510 what with re-gen vs. my non Tier 4 DK35SE machine? Weights similar, tires one size larger, loaders stronger, bit more torque/hp.
I have my eye on a private sale, 2020 DK4510, geared, with 140 hours now. New Qct 2020. It has a canopy (I don't want) and FEL w bucket, been stored inside. I've considered a buy one, sell mine to move to a newer, stronger machine but tough to decide what I really gain overall for my bucks? The seller of the 4510 says his weights 5,000 with fluid in tires. Mines near that w/o any fluid. Tire sizes do go up along with the hp but most seem to have the same 1.8L , 3cyl engine I've already got newer so have re-gen I don't have now, of course.
I've not called any dealers (both are couple hours away) to see if they are available or at what price points on a cash deal. PM me if you like your details and opinions, etc., thanks.
In further comparison checks on tractordata.com I'm seeing that the hp goes up on these 10 Series Kiotis but until I get to a DK5010 they don't match my DK35SE's engine torque.