Used Value vs Age

[Hay Dude]

Let me ask you something espace1fan,
You like newer technology, new efficiency, new stuff. Cool. So do I.
Tell me how many pieces of equipment you maintain on a daily or weekly basis? I run (4) 125-300HP farm tractors, (2) large balers, rakes, tedder, (2) trucks, (2) zero turns, (2) trailers and (2) JD CX-15‘ batwing mowers, plus a bunch of small equipment (weed wacker, chain saws, snow plows, grapples, etc).
So do you think we fly-over country backwards people running equipment that’s 10-20 years old can actually afford ALL NEW highly “efficient” equipment? Do you think if my (4) tractors and (2) trucks were all brand new “high efficiency” I’d even be able to service all the electronics and computers? I wouldn’t. I don’t have formal high tech equipment repair training.
Do you live in reality of what it’s like to run an equipment heavy business?
Do you have any idea what new “efficient” equipment costs?
Sometimes buying a 15 year old tractor for 1/5th the cost of a new one keeps me in the black and saves me a lot of money for repairs, should they become necessary.

 

[espacef1fan]

Let me ask you something espace1fan,
You like newer technology, new efficiency, new stuff.
Tell me how many pieces of equipment you maintain on a daily basis? I run 4 farm tractors, 2 large baleR1’s, rakes, tedder, trucks, (2) zero turns, (2) trailers and (2) JD CX-15 batwing mowers, plus a bunch of small equipment (weed wacker, chain saws, etc).
So do you think we backwards people running equipment that’s 10-20 years old can actually afford ALL NEW highly efficient equipment? Do you think if my (4) tractors and (2) trucks were all brand new “high efficiency” I’d even be able to service all the electronics and computers?
Do you live in reality of what it’s like to run an equipment heavy business?

I have no issue with old equipment. I just sold a 1975 jd 1120 but only because it was coming due for some bigger maintenance I did t want to deal with and it wasn’t capable of having a loader AND powersteering in a cost effective manner.

I just couldnt stand the frothing at the mouth from some people have against new equipment and some of the false statements being made about it.

 

[Hay Dude]

I have no issue with old equipment. I just sold a 1975 jd 1120 but only because it was coming due for some bigger maintenance I did t want to deal with and it wasn’t capable of having a loader AND powersteering in a cost effective manner.

I just couldnt stand the frothing at the mouth from some people have against new equipment and some of the false statements being made about it.

That’s understandable, but I think we have to be careful of broad brushing everyone as being able to afford NEW for everything, or they somehow lack intelligence.
They can’t.
Sometimes we have to get by with good, solid used equipment with lots of life left. I got kids in college and a mortgage, too. Just like many other company owners.
If I was running a JD 1120, and that’s pretty much all I was running, then yeah, I might be able to see buying something new.

 

[5030]

...and I thought I had a lot of rolling stock.....

Let me ask you something espace1fan,
You like newer technology, new efficiency, new stuff. Cool. So do I.
Tell me how many pieces of equipment you maintain on a daily or weekly basis? I run (4) 125-300HP farm tractors, (2) large balers, rakes, tedder, (2) trucks, (2) zero turns, (2) trailers and (2) JD CX-15‘ batwing mowers, plus a bunch of small equipment (weed wacker, chain saws, snow plows, grapples, etc).
So do you think we fly-over country backwards people running equipment that’s 10-20 years old can actually afford ALL NEW highly “efficient” equipment? Do you think if my (4) tractors and (2) trucks were all brand new “high efficiency” I’d even be able to service all the electronics and computers?
Do you live in reality of what it’s like to run an equipment heavy business?
Do you have any idea what new “efficient” equipment costs?
Sometimes buying a 15 year old tractor for 1/5th the cost of a new one keeps me in the black and saves me a lot of money for repairs, should they become necessary.

..and I thought I had a lot of rolling stock....lol

I'll take a pre emissions unit and raise you another one...

 

[Hay Dude]

...and I thought I had a lot of rolling stock.....

..and I thought I had a lot of rolling stock....lol

I'll take a pre emissions unit and raise you another one...

It’s like a detachment from reality to think everyone can fix new computer controlled equipment. Heck there’s lawsuits out there for farmers against Deere for trying to fix on board computer software! Its like you’re not even allowed to fix the new tractors in some cases!
screw dat!
New Efficient is great, but its expensive!

 

[espacef1fan]

That’s understandable, but I think we have to be careful of broad brushing everyone as being able to afford NEW for everything, or they somehow lack intelligence.
They can’t.
Sometimes we have to get by with good, solid used equipment with lots of life left. I got kids in college and a mortgage, too. Just like many other company owners.
If I was running a JD 1120, and that’s pretty much all I was running, then yeah, I might be able to see buying something new.

I wasn’t begrudging anyone for not buying new for financial reasons.

That’s the best reason to run old iron.

I actually want to eventually get another older tractor just because they are pleasing to look at and operate (sometimes)

 

[5030]

actually want to eventually get another older tractor just because they are pleasing to look at and operate (sometimes)

Sometimes for you maybe, all the time for me and I suspect all the time for Hay Dude too.

heck, I had to go to the mountain to figure out how to use my Autel OBD scanner. Not all that computer literate. I don't even manage this laptop I'm posting on, my BIL in Joliet, Illinois does. I just use it and paid for it...

Somewhere along this thread I saw a comment about how a new unit didn't stink. Me, I love the smell of a diesel engine exhaust. Hillbilly incense.

I'll never own a post 4 tractor don't want one. Besides my Kubota's will outlast me and will still be worth big money.

Post 4 tractors will always command premium prices because they are no longer being made so what is here is all there is and rarity always increases an item's value, especially when the item is something useful and useable.

Both of mine get the best of care and feeding. I want them to last and I want them to be worth big bucks when it's time to sell them

 

[Cougsfan]

I don't think that anyone is arguing the fact that vehicles (cars, tractors, motorcycles, even bicycles) have improved tremendously because of technology. Technology can not only be good. It can be wonderful. However that doesn't mean that all technology is good. It can be overdone, and doesn't always provide a good tradeoff in terms of cost and/or problems versus improved performance.

Take DPF's on diesel tractors for instance. DPF's catch heavy particulates. In downtown LA heavy particulates are a big problem. They should be caught and not put into the atmosphere, particularly in downtown LA. But these heavy particulates don't travel far. In the rural areas that have few vehicles and lots of land (and air) these particulates are not that much of a pollution problem. I have no problem with getting rid of particulates, even in the rural setting. But getting rid of them with today's technology means increased fuel consumption and increased co2 emissions, along with repeated reliability issues. Is a DPF a good trade-off and wise environmental decision? Not in my book.

The lets look at computers on compact tractors. I recently looked at a new 55 hp Yanmar. Virtually everything on it is computer controlled. Does it really do provide far reaching advantages that the average person who buys that tractor needs or will even use? Not really. My neighbor recently sold his relatively new TYM tractor because of repeated "computer problems" that the dealer had a hard time diagnosing and fixing. Are computers a big benefit in compact tractors? Might be someday, but not today in my book.

 

[5030]

The ONLY reason we have this 'technology' in new tractors today is because of the EPA and their mandates. Mandates written by some college educated bloke who don't really have a clue about real world operation. I say technology tongue-in-cheek because from what I see, most of it just causes grief for the end user.

When it works as planned, it's all good but when it don't, the nightmares start....and then there is the ever present cost of cannister replacement, maybe not for the original owner but somewhere down the line, it has to be cleaned or replaced and both are costly. They do have a finite life after all. Someone at some point gets to 'pay the piper' if, the unit lasts that long that is. When you start bolting on emissions hardware and adding computer controls, I bet engine longevity goes out the window. Only time will tell but it will be interesting to watch at any rate.

Everything was fine until the greenies screwed it up. Like I've said before, the only good part is the fact that my pre 4 units are appreciating in value because every day, they are getting harder to get.

Maybe that 225 grand JD electric utility tractor ain't such a bad deal after all. Probably make a good mobile welding platform too.

 

[Cougsfan]

The ONLY reason we have this 'technology' in new tractors today is because of the EPA and their mandates.

Not all of it is. John Deere gathering your gps data is certainly not EPA mandated, Computer controlled fuel injection systems are not necessary to meet EPA standards (Branson's don't have it and meet regs). On the Yanmar I looked at, auto throttle control, AB mode, and anti stall are not EPA mandated. They are factory added computer controlled features that most of us have lived without for years and never knew we needed. I, for one, sure don't need them, as they are just another feature to fail, and fail in a hard to fix way.

 

[ranchito]

If we had access to the diagnostics for the system, I wouldn't care. That said, with the nearest dealer over an hour away and not owning a trailer or truck capable of towing the tractor to the dealer, I am out of luck.

 

[Hay Dude]

I don’t know what’s in the “hearts and minds” of the manufacturers dumping all the computer controlled technology in these tractors, but it is revealing when they quit working and you have no chance fixing them.
Related, I put a brand new $39,000 New Holland RB450 round baler into service this year. On bale number 1, it was getting close to making a full bale and the digital monitor in the cab was acting strangely.
I decided it was best to manually wrap the bale and call the dealer. They sent a service truck out and the tech couldn’t figure out the problem. New Holland sent a manufacturers rep out and found the on board COMPUTER controller was defective. It was fixed under warranty. The cost was not disclosed, but the dealers tech said it was north of $2,000.
Not a huge repair for my size operation, but if it was out of warranty, I’d be out over $2,000.

 

[IndyJay]

I don’t know what’s in the “hearts and minds” of the manufacturers dumping all the computer controlled technology in these tractors, but it is revealing when they quit working and you have no chance fixing them.
Related, I put a brand new $39,000 New Holland RB450 round baler into service this year. On bale number 1, it was getting close to making a full bale and the digital monitor in the cab was acting strangely.
I decided it was best to manually wrap the bale and call the dealer. They sent a service truck out and the tech couldn’t figure out the problem. New Holland sent a manufacturers rep out and found the on board COMPUTER controller was defective. It was fixed under warranty. The cost was not disclosed, but the dealers tech said it was north of $2,000.
Not a huge repair for my size operation, but if it was out of warranty, I’d be out over $2,000.

And there is the rub... for many of us, when the non-computerized machines "start to act up" we usually notice the "change" and can begin troubleshooting while still operating it. If it suddenly stops working, we have processes for troubleshooting which can pretty much identify the issue rather quickly. More experienced of us can actually figure out how to fix it ourselves with available parts. Not so much with the new stuff. Aside from the purely mechanical, when something on a modern tractor stops working it is often abrupt, with little warning. The typical troubleshooting techniques may not work if the ecu will not let you perform tasks that you would normally do for testing. A previously simple repair of a component just got a bit complex, requiring a proprietary computer scan to tell you what part to replace. Similar to what back alley mechanics faced popping the hood on a late 60's car vs early 80's.

In my opinion, even if the tractor manufacturers don't want to allow us full access to ecu programming, they should at least have the dash display codes that we can look up to assist us with trouble shooting.

 

[Hay Dude]

And there is the rub... for many of us, when the non-computerized machines "start to act up" we usually notice the "change" and can begin troubleshooting while still operating it. If it suddenly stops working, we have processes for troubleshooting which can pretty much identify the issue rather quickly. More experienced of us can actually figure out how to fix it ourselves with available parts. Not so much with the new stuff. Aside from the purely mechanical, when something on a modern tractor stops working it is often abrupt, with little warning. The typical troubleshooting techniques may not work if the ecu will not let you perform tasks that you would normally do for testing. A previously simple repair of a component just got a bit complex, requiring a proprietary computer scan to tell you what part to replace. Similar to what back alley mechanics faced popping the hood on a late 60's car vs early 80's.

In my opinion, even if the tractor manufacturers don't want to allow us full access to ecu programming, they should at least have the dash display codes that we can look up to assist us with trouble shooting.

Yep. Many “service manuals” actually state “contact dealers service for this repair”, because they know they are the only ones who have access to the software needed to diagnose and fix….
Cha-Ching! $$$$

 

[bvanek]

I don’t need to make a list

I’ve looked at/researched many cars and trucks and was disappointed how heavy they’ve gotten with time which hurts fuel economy/outright performance.

here we get a statement that a "know it all" makes claims but can only back it up with cherry picked singular data essentially leaving out specific details and facts mentioned by some of us in this forum. I could digest some info from him if he wasn't supplanting valid data and personal experience/knowledge with an agenda driven narrative.

At least he charges in with a relative civil tone, but it seems he is using a clean air moral high ground to push some guilt onto rural people who need to weigh in daily on how to make ends meet and provide for the welfare of their families. Is it Ok that we don't buy the rhetoric in telling us that we have to comply under the guise of the co2 hoax. We all want clean air and water but at what cost????? Rural people need choices, competition for resources and they are willing to work hard and sacrifice to "get it done" They rely on themselves and not an ever-controlling government dictating what they can do on their land and what equipment they can use to maintain it.

I have owned a 1970 Pontiac GTO, a 1973 GMC van, a 1976 chevy 3/4 ton camper special, a 83 Mazda mini-van, a 96 chevy 1 ton dually 454 ....all heavier than any replacement vehicle that might take it's place today. So you can always erase history and "supplant" to falsely support a claim. This guy also claims that today's "suburban" pickups are better at towing and payload capacity than the trucks they pretend to replace....or should I say eliminated,
I have a 1999 Ford f350 7.3 liter diesel (crew cab dually 8 foot box) 4x4 with leafs in front. Essentially this is a truck. It can pull a loaded 4 horse trailer, 10 ft camper loaded (water tank full) up a 30 deg grade......It's my driveway and when I get to the top I can see quite clearly because the air is nice and clean.

side notes; I burn non-ethanol fuel in all my maintenance equipment, chain saws, mowers, tillers, etc. The first reason is obvious.... i expect them to last. The second reason is fuel economy. So I pay more for the fuel but i do get a return. I just thought I'd mention this because California has it's own pollution standards that puts a big, essentially punishing tax and subsequent price tag on combustion engines and fuel. A carbon tax that gets you twice first when you pay more the carb-compliant equipment and then for the fuel to run it. Of course this dose not hurt the elites, and political figureheads that are all to happy to make you pay for what they can easily absorb financially and in the case of the public officials use taxpayers money.

 

[espacef1fan]

here we get a statement that a "know it all" makes claims but can only back it up with cherry picked singular data essentially leaving out specific details and facts mentioned by some of us in this forum. i could digest some info from him if he wasn't supplanting valid data and personal experience/knowledge with an agenda driven narrative. At least he charges in with a relative civil tone. us but when charged himself I just don't buy this pollution controlThese people just don't care about the consequencesHw just don't getHe has been civil withcritical of validity rebutal but his point was targeted at fuel economy essentially was based on

Please tell me my agenda.

 

[fried1765]

here we get a statement that a "know it all" makes claims but can only back it up with cherry picked singular data essentially leaving out specific details and facts mentioned by some of us in this forum. I could digest some info from him if he wasn't supplanting valid data and personal experience/knowledge with an agenda driven narrative.

At least he charges in with a relative civil tone, but it seems he is using a clean air moral high ground to push some guilt onto rural people who need to weigh in daily on how to make ends meet and provide for the welfare of their families. Is it Ok that we don't buy the rhetoric in telling us that we have to comply under the guise of the co2 hoax. We all want clean air and water but at what cost????? Rural people need choices, competition for resources and they are willing to work hard and sacrifice to "get it done" They rely on themselves and not an ever-controlling government dictating what they can do on their land and what equipment they can use to maintain it.

I have owned a 1970 Pontiac GTO, a 1973 GMC van, a 1976 chevy 3/4 ton camper special, a 83 Mazda mini-van, a 96 chevy 1 ton dually 454 ....all heavier than any replacement vehicle that might take it's place today. So you can always erase history and "supplant" to falsely support a claim. This guy also claims that today's "suburban" pickups are better at towing and payload capacity than the trucks they pretend to replace....or should I say eliminated,
I have a 1999 Ford f350 7.3 liter diesel (crew cab dually 8 foot box) 4x4 with leafs in front. Essentially this is a truck. It can pull a loaded 4 horse trailer, 10 ft camper loaded (water tank full) up a 30 deg grade......It's my driveway and when I get to the top I can see quite clearly because the air is nice and clean.

side notes; I burn non-ethanol fuel in all my maintenance equipment, chain saws, mowers, tillers, etc. The first reason is obvious.... i expect them to last. The second reason is fuel economy. So I pay more for the fuel but i do get a return. I just thought I'd mention this because California has it's own pollution standards that puts a big, essentially punishing tax and subsequent price tag on combustion engines and fuel. A carbon tax that gets you twice first when you pay more the carb-compliant equipment and then for the fuel to run it. Of course this dose not hurt the elites, and political figureheads that are all to happy to make you pay for what they can easily absorb financially and in the case of the public officials use taxpayers money.

I use ultra expensive 100 octane low lead (Av gas) in all my small engines, because the libertards in MA have prohibited the dispensing of non ethanol fuel from a pump.

 

[bvanek]

I use ultra expensive 100 octane low lead (Av gas) in all my small engines, because the libertards in MA have prohibited the sale of non ethanol fuel being dispensed from a pump.

Are you close to marine fuel (boat docks and moorings) They generally have non-ethanol fuel for boats because of the moisture wicking. Oregon has been hijacked by the rural hating city outsiders (Marxists) as well, but we still have the marine resources and some local supply at a pump or 2 about 20 miles from me. I'm about 7 miles from a Columbia river dock but they price gouge so I drive to the card-lock truck station to get it....costs about 30 cents a gallon more.

 

[fried1765]

Are you close to marine fuel (boat docks and moorings) They generally have non-ethanol fuel for boats because of the moisture wicking. Oregon has been hijacked by the rural hating city outsiders (Marxists) as well, but we still have the marine resources and some local supply at a pump or 2 about 20 miles from me. I'm about 7 miles from a Columbia river dock but they price gouge so I drive to the card-lock truck station to get it....costs about 30 cents a gallon more.

Are you close to marine fuel (boat docks and moorings) They generally have non-ethanol fuel for boats because of the moisture wicking. Oregon has been hijacked by the rural hating city outsiders (Marxists) as well, but we still have the marine resources and some local supply at a pump or 2 about 20 miles from me. I'm about 7 miles from a Columbia river dock but they price gouge so I drive to the card-lock truck station to get it....costs about 30 cents a gallon more.

I am very close to several marinas, but I do not believe that they are permitted to sell non ethanol fuel either.
The state regulation specifically states: "non ethanol fuel may not be dispensed from a pump".
That said, the local airport does pump 100LL into my cans, and the local fire departments buy there also, for their electric generator engines.
I think I checked marinas long ago, but will check again.

 

[espacef1fan]

I use ultra expensive 100 octane low lead (Av gas) in all my small engines, because the libertards in MA have prohibited the sale of non ethanol fuel being dispensed from a pump.

No wonder they are MASS-holes with laws like that.