JD2210 hard turnover & won't start

[jd2210newbie]

I've got a JD2210 diesel ~500 hrs. I think the whole thing was made by Yanmar and they put JD green and logos on it. I was using it yesterday, moving things around with the bucket etc. I parked it and then today went to start it. Nothing but click. Sounded like classic bad battery, cable, connector, etc. So I started cleaning connections etc. Finally decided to jump it from my truck. It just barely turned over and wouldn't start. Cables got hot, must be lots of current. Plenty of oil so I don't think the motor is partially siezed. I'm hoping it might be starter, maybe some internal shorts in the starter motor. Any suggestions? I have not seen starters fail that way but obviously I am hoping something catastropic didn't happen in the motor or hydraulics.

Obviously, its very dead in the water right now with the bucket sitting on the ground.

 

[Roadworthy]

You should be able to turn the engine over with a socket wrench on the crankshaft. That will let you know if it turns freely. It does sound as though your starter may be the culprit - unless there's a short to ground somewhere nearby. As a second check you could remove the starter from the tractor and energize it separately. It's possible it will spin but may not have enough power to turn the motor over due to a bad winding or some such. A starter shop should be able to tell you more.

 

[Tx Jim]

Welcome to TBN
I suggest to clean/tighten battery cable connections paying special attention to where cable attaches to frame.

 

[CoyPatton]

I've got a JD2210 diesel ~500 hrs. I think the whole thing was made by Yanmar and they put JD green and logos on it. I was using it yesterday, moving things around with the bucket etc. I parked it and then today went to start it. Nothing but click. Sounded like classic bad battery, cable, connector, etc. So I started cleaning connections etc. Finally decided to jump it from my truck. It just barely turned over and wouldn't start. Cables got hot, must be lots of current. Plenty of oil so I don't think the motor is partially siezed. I'm hoping it might be starter, maybe some internal shorts in the starter motor. Any suggestions? I have not seen starters fail that way but obviously I am hoping something catastropic didn't happen in the motor or hydraulics.

Obviously, its very dead in the water right now with the bucket sitting on the ground.

Welcome to TBN from SE Missouri.
Your 2210 does have a Yanmar engine but parts likely came from anywhere in the world that JD either has plants or like Yanmar in Japan an association with a manufacture. It would have probably been assembled in their GA plant in the states.
Yanmar did indeed built many compact tractors to JD specs for JD. Those machines are the 650-1250 series tractors there were a few 55 series as well. I have a friend that has an 855.

Anyway, to your issues. Your cables getting hot (I assume to touch) is a classic sign of a dead short somewhere just like Roadworthy said.
As a safety concern check your main battery cable to starter solenoid closely. Then check it for amperage that it can handle. You could have broken wires inside the insulation or corrosion preventing the cable from carry necessary voltage to the starter. Getting hot especially too hot to hold may have finished off that cable.
Also have that battery checked. My best guess from what you describe is the short is internal to the battery.
Good luck!

 

[reich]

Starter!

 

[jd2210newbie]

You should be able to turn the engine over with a socket wrench on the crankshaft. That will let you know if it turns freely. It does sound as though your starter may be the culprit - unless there's a short to ground somewhere nearby. As a second check you could remove the starter from the tractor and energize it separately. It's possible it will spin but may not have enough power to turn the motor over due to a bad winding or some such. A starter shop should be able to tell you more.

Thanks to all for the suggestions. I was wondering about the possibility of turning the crank manually to see how hard it is. I am going to take the starter off and see how it runs with no load on it. In the old days starters were rebuilt, not sure if anyone does that anymore. I am surprised by how present day starters are so small. Boy....I hope its the starter. There's nothing like a totally hydraulic machine with a bucket on the ground to make everything grind to stop.

 

[Roadworthy]

Upon reflection it also occurred to me you could try tightening the starter's mounting bolts as that is the return path to ground. Also be sure the starter power cable connections are tight on both ends. I still think it's probably the starter but these are other (less expensive) things to try. Yes, starter repair shops still exist. We have one locally but when the starter on my Mitsubishi tractor began acting up he just ordered a new one. I think it was about $200 - made in Mexico but it worked.

 

[jd2210newbie]

It would crank slowly with an external big battery but the current must have been very high. The path thru the frame ground was inadequate so I had to connect the negative jumper clamp directly to the starter frame. That's when I noticed that wires got pretty hot, not melting, but hot. So I suspect(hope) its something shorted in the starter or solenoid hopefully not a huge mechanical load from the engine.

So I'm not going to find a replacement starter at Autozone. Just kidding, I know better. I would think that this little 3 cyl yanmar is used in lots of applications.

 

[CoyPatton]

Again I recommend checking out the system carefully before throwing parts (and money) at the tractor!
Tractordata.com show your tractor to have a 3TNE77 engine in it. There should be a data plate on the engine that specifics the engine, as well as other data about the engine.
Unless you have a means of loafing the starter, your bench testing of your starter is going to provide little information. The only exception to this rule would be a dragging starter on bench testing.
You already know the bendix is engaging to push the gears out to contact the flywheel. So if you pull the starter, take it to auto electric shop and have them test it, if they can rebuild it, usually the testing fee is rolled into the rebuild fee.
Before you go all yanmar on me, realize that lawn tractors by jd that run diesels through the 4 series run Yanmar engines

One commenter, brought out a good point, if your starter bolts/mount is not providing a good return for current, you set up the battery cable for getting hot. Good current flow is as important as good battery connection. I have seen the problem with a dragging starter being a poor connection at the starter mount (rust) to the point that the simplest/cheapest solution was to make a jumper ground from a starter bolt (starter side) to the frame.
I am not going to say it is not the starter, but starters usually fail on a slow process. It is much more common for a battery to go out fast than a starter.
Again have the battery checked. Also double/triple check all cable connections for tightness and cleanness.

 

[jd2210newbie]

Again I recommend checking out the system carefully before throwing parts (and money) at the tractor!
Tractordata.com show your tractor to have a 3TNE77 engine in it. There should be a data plate on the engine that specifics the engine, as well as other data about the engine.
Unless you have a means of loafing the starter, your bench testing of your starter is going to provide little information. The only exception to this rule would be a dragging starter on bench testing.
You already know the bendix is engaging to push the gears out to contact the flywheel. So if you pull the starter, take it to auto electric shop and have them test it, if they can rebuild it, usually the testing fee is rolled into the rebuild fee.
Before you go all yanmar on me, realize that lawn tractors by jd that run diesels through the 4 series run Yanmar engines

One commenter, brought out a good point, if your starter bolts/mount is not providing a good return for current, you set up the battery cable for getting hot. Good current flow is as important as good battery connection. I have seen the problem with a dragging starter being a poor connection at the starter mount (rust) to the point that the simplest/cheapest solution was to make a jumper ground from a starter bolt (starter side) to the frame.
I am not going to say it is not the starter, but starters usually fail on a slow process. It is much more common for a battery to go out fast than a starter.
Again have the battery checked. Also double/triple check all cable connections for tightness and cleanness.

Thanks for the feedback. It helps. Today I got the starter off and just connecting to a battery it spins like crazy so I doubt that it is the starter. It would have to be a weak starter that takes a lot of current under load which I think is unlikely. Ughhh. I started feeling around the engine to see if I could get a wrench on the crank. On the end of the crank there appears to be a nut shaped like a half moon. Would be nice if could crank it around but....before with enough current to the starter(heavier wires etc) it would spin albeit not fast enough to start. So I am reluctantly concluding that something in the engine has gotten very stiff. It has plenty of oil and it did not overheat. Any feedback helps. I'm in central Texas so I will start looking for the best repair place for this little JD or Yanmar.

edit, I was trying to figure out what you meant by "loafing" the starter. You meant loading. I agree, I will say this, I can't hold it with my hand to stall it. There is a starter rebuild place in the area it is probably worth letting them try it before I haul the whole tractor off somewhere.

 

[CoyPatton]

Thanks for the feedback. It helps. Today I got the starter off and just connecting to a battery it spins like crazy so I doubt that it is the starter. It would have to be a weak starter that takes a lot of current under load which I think is unlikely. Ughhh. I started feeling around the engine to see if I could get a wrench on the crank. On the end of the crank there appears to be a nut shaped like a half moon. Would be nice if could crank it around but....before with enough current to the starter(heavier wires etc) it would spin albeit not fast enough to start. So I am reluctantly concluding that something in the engine has gotten very stiff. It has plenty of oil and it did not overheat. Any feedback helps. I'm in central Texas so I will start looking for the best repair place for this little JD or Yanmar.

edit, I was trying to figure out what you meant by "loafing" the starter. You meant loading. I agree, I will say this, I can't hold it with my hand to stall it. There is a starter rebuild place in the area it is probably worth letting them try it before I haul the whole tractor off somewhere.

Yes loading. Sorry fat thumbs and I missed that typo.

Dead center of your crankshaft, there should be a bolt going into the crankshaft to hold the pulley on. You should be able to place a socket on it (not a wrench) and ratchet or breaker bar. You may need a short extension also.

Since you have the starter off, take it to the shop and have them test it. I would also have the battery load tested. This is typically available at any auto service location that sells batteries and parts stores. Avoid the big parts stores that do not have auto centers that will install batteries.

 

[jd2210newbie]

Yes loading. Sorry fat thumbs and I missed that typo.

Dead center of your crankshaft, there should be a bolt going into the crankshaft to hold the pulley on. You should be able to place a socket on it (not a wrench) and ratchet or breaker bar. You may need a short extension also.

Since you have the starter off, take it to the shop and have them test it. I would also have the battery load tested. This is typically available at any auto service location that sells batteries and parts stores. Avoid the big parts stores that do not have auto centers that will install batteries.

 

[jd2210newbie]

tks Coy,
good news I think. I was able to get a 17mm socket on the crank and it seems to rotate easily even with a short ratchet handle. So I am back thinking it is the starter. Now to figure out the best place to have it tested, a generic auto parts store or an actual starter/alternator shop?.

As I mentioned before the starter rotates very fast unloaded. However, trying to rotate that bendix/gear by hand on the starter is more difficult than I would have expected.

 

[jd2210newbie]

just fyi, there are a lot numbers on the starter id plate.
YM 119462-77010

428000

12V DE08
MADE IN JAPAN
I'm guessing it was made in Dec 2008.

 

[CoyPatton]

tks Coy,
good news I think. I was able to get a 17mm socket on the crank and it seems to rotate easily even with a short ratchet handle. So I am back thinking it is the starter. Now to figure out the best place to have it tested, a generic auto parts store or an actual starter/alternator shop?.

As I mentioned before the starter rotates very fast unloaded. However, trying to rotate that bendix/gear by hand on the starter is more difficult than I would have expected.

Since you suspect starter issues, go with the auto electric shop. Some will roll the test expense into a rebuild if needed.

 

[jd2210newbie]

New one is $315... ouch, I have the most expensive starter for tractors it seems.
rebuild $125- 185 local rebuilder who says that they have most denso parts.
It is pretty difficult to rotate the starter gear must be a gummed up bearing inside.
There are some interesting little covered vent ports on the body of the starter, not sure if that's for lubing air or what.

 

[CoyPatton]

New one is $315... ouch, I have the most expensive starter for tractors it seems.
rebuild $125- 185 local rebuilder who says that they have most denso parts.
It is pretty difficult to rotate the starter gear must be a gummed up bearing inside.
There are some interesting little covered vent ports on the body of the starter, not sure if that's for lubing air or what.

My guess on the ports would be heat vents.

 

[jd2210newbie]

An update on my starter problem. I decided to take apart the starter to
see what might need repair. Only thing I found was that the commutator
was loaded with graphite which is kinda normal I think. Nevertheless I cleaned it and put it all back together.

Put it back on the tractor and jumpered it to an external battery. It started spinning slowly at first but then finally got fast enough that the motor started. So to make it work I had to directly connect the negative cable directly to the base of the starter where its installed to the tractor frame and I suspect cleaning that commutator ring increased the start current enough.

So I'm going to rewire the negative wire so it doesn't go thru tractor frame but is a separate wire along the block of the engine to the battery.

I think the problem is that this starter is marginal to begin with, not real fast, ug....ug....ug and finally ug.ug.ug... Then the diesel starts so quickly when the speed gets up that it always seemed like it was rotating too slowly but then all of sudden the diesel starts.

When I cleaned the starter I forgot to clean that plunger which is part of the bendix and is actually a solenoid/switch contact that connects +12 to the internal starter motor. that was a mistake looking back on it. I should have checked that contact area on that plunger since there could be some voltage drop in that contact point. I suspect that I'll get a chance to take it apart again.

This whole discussion is really not unique to tractors but I could not find any forums that discussed generic diesel engine mechanical work. Most info I found on Yanmar was in sailboat forums.

 

[CoyPatton]

An update on my starter problem. I decided to take apart the starter to
see what might need repair. Only thing I found was that the commutator
was loaded with graphite which is kinda normal I think. Nevertheless I cleaned it and put it all back together.

Put it back on the tractor and jumpered it to an external battery. It started spinning slowly at first but then finally got fast enough that the motor started. So to make it work I had to directly connect the negative cable directly to the base of the starter where its installed to the tractor frame and I suspect cleaning that commutator ring increased the start current enough.

So I'm going to rewire the negative wire so it doesn't go thru tractor frame but is a separate wire along the block of the engine to the battery.

I think the problem is that this starter is marginal to begin with, not real fast, ug....ug....ug and finally ug.ug.ug... Then the diesel starts so quickly when the speed gets up that it always seemed like it was rotating too slowly but then all of sudden the diesel starts.

When I cleaned the starter I forgot to clean that plunger which is part of the bendix and is actually a solenoid/switch contact that connects +12 to the internal starter motor. that was a mistake looking back on it. I should have checked that contact area on that plunger since there could be some voltage drop in that contact point. I suspect that I'll get a chance to take it apart again.

This whole discussion is really not unique to tractors but I could not find any forums that discussed generic diesel engine mechanical work. Most info I found on Yanmar was in sailboat forums.

Personally, instead of rerouting the grounding cable to the starter, I prefer to making a jumper cable from a starter bolt on the starter side to the frame of the tractor. If indeed your issue is the starter getting a solid ground, which I have seen it is through corrosion build up on the bolts/threads/machined mating surfaces. The jumper cable provides a secondary path for the ground to the frame, and maintains a frame grounding system for other electrical components on the tractor. If you relocate the ground to the starter body, you could create a lot of other electrical issues with the tractor as now only the starter has a sufficient ground.

 

[Keoke]

Hi jd22, The fact that the positive bat got real hot (hi current) means that all circuitry to and from the starter is good since you are flowing way more amperage than normal.
The most likely cause of excessive internal heavy starter amp draw is worn armature bushings. This causes the armature to drag on the field pole shoes causing friction.
But since the starter runs well on the bench then engine problems seem high on your list.
A fault to look for here is non-compressible liquid above the piston caused by either a coolant leak or a dripping injector putting liquid in the cyl. Hydro lock.
You can check this possibility out by either removing an injector or glow plug and trying to crank the engine while watching each cyl.

lots of luck,