How does an HST compare in pulling power with the same tractor and a gear trans?

[RickB]

It's like the comment about tractor pulls. At a tractor pull there's equipment that grades and compacts the tract after each pull. It's done so each puller has the same conditions. My point is that we don't all live on a tractor pulling track and the question shouldn't be "which one can pull more" but "which one is right for the tasks I plan on doing".

Any way you slice or dice it the HST will always have less torque available to the wheels.

Pretty much. But for marketing and comparative reasons comprehensive repeatable testing has its place. The State of Nebraska thought so 100 years ago and still does.

 

[CobyRupert]

Neil says at the end he didn’t expect the results he got. I don’t think was trying to sell gear tractors.
Neil was measuring pulling FORCE.
Force is not the same as Power.
A 15 hp 20 ton tractor can pull with a lot more Force than a 1000 hp 3 ton tractor. There’s a YouTube video of an old steam tractor hooked up back to back with a pulling tractor.
... but the 1000 hp 3 ton has more pulling Power...but not in that test when it’s spinning and getting pulled backwards.. if that makes sense.

 

[4570Man]

What's the point of doing test on Low range or even use Low range as an argument? Everyone knows that any tractor with any transmission can do well in low range.

But, in the real world application, is a field plowed in Low range? Do you go on the road in low range? No...

Just bare tractor, no loader or implements, the HST will slow down significantly on a slight hill, where the Gear just keeps going at full speed. If the grade of the hill increases, the HST will most likely have to stop in the middle of the road to drop to Medium range and the Gear will just drop a gear or two on the move and keep going. There is your difference between the two transmissions.

Low range proves nothing other than that both transmissions can spin the wheels, unless that's a thing too...

PS: I have nothing against HST, in fact, would be the right transmission for my use but it would have to be special ordered at a much higher price tag.

Even if that was the goal it still proves nothing. With different gear ratios in the transmission you haven’t proved anything power wise. If I chained both my dump trucks together in the highest gear but the bigger truck has has 8.50-1 gears in the rear end and and 6.10 on the high side and a 1-1 gear in the highest transmission gear and the other truck has 1-1.25 in the highest transmission gear and 3.73 rear end gears what has been proved? The second big problem in video is jerking the chain. That alone would severely skew the test. Another important variable is chain length. And I’d be interested to see a gear and HST tractor test pulling up a hill. A good gear transmission with 20 gears will be the clear winner. A not good transmission like that Kubota will be closer to an even match. When you have to drop a gear to pull the hill and the only gear is a lot down the HST would have a chance at maintaining slightly faster. That’s a common problem with mowing. One gear is a little fast for conditions and the other is a little slow. The gear trans has no choice but to run the slow gear where the HST can maintain the perfect speed. Again if you have 20 gears it wouldn’t happen but that Kubota only has 4 with a low/high.

 

[mcfarmall]

Pretty much. But for marketing and comparative reasons comprehensive repeatable testing has its place. The State of Nebraska thought so 100 years ago and still does.

And objective! I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Waffles]

I just watched the Messicks video. I checked the manual for L3901 that he uses and they are not geared the same.

The HST pulled 1119 pounds in high range that has a top speed of 14.1 mph.

The gear pulled 1500 pounds in high 4 which has a top speed of 13.2 mph.

If you correct the gear to have the same 14.1 mph top speed the force would be 1404 pounds. That is still a 25% increase in force over the HST.

Great demonstration of power from Messicks.

Both would pull the same in low range because of traction.

 

[Mat4644]

Both would pull the same in low range because of traction.

I've maxed out my 4 wd HSTs in the lowest range before with ideal traction many times. A gear transmission would most likely continued pushing until breaking traction (or maybe breaking the tractor:laughing.

 

[ptsg]

Even if that was the goal it still proves nothing. With different gear ratios in the transmission you haven’t proved anything power wise.

If I chained both my dump trucks together in the highest gear but the bigger truck has has 8.50-1 gears in the rear end and and 6.10 on the high side and a 1-1 gear in the highest transmission gear and the other truck has 1-1.25 in the highest transmission gear and 3.73 rear end gears what has been proved?

The second big problem in video is jerking the chain. That alone would severely skew the test. Another important variable is chain length. And I’d be interested to see a gear and HST tractor test pulling up a hill. A good gear transmission with 20 gears will be the clear winner. A not good transmission like that Kubota will be closer to an even match.

When you have to drop a gear to pull the hill and the only gear is a lot down the HST would have a chance at maintaining slightly faster. That’s a common problem with mowing. One gear is a little fast for conditions and the other is a little slow. The gear trans has no choice but to run the slow gear where the HST can maintain the perfect speed. Again if you have 20 gears it wouldn’t happen but that Kubota only has 4 with a low/high.

If in a 20 gears transmission or even a simple 12x12, you can't find the right speed for mowing, you're just being picky at that point.

I have 12 and I've had no problems on finding the right gear, and if I did have a problem (highly unlikely), I could still change between 540 or 540E at the PTO to fine tune that speed.

The point is, you can't more similar tractors that those used in the video, and it's clear which one can deliver more power before wheel spin or relief valve opening.

Has anyone actually confirmed if the ratios between the two tractors are that different? I'm willing to bet that the range and diff ratios will be pretty close if not the same.

Anyways, as Mat4644 said before: "Any way you slice or dice it the HST will always have less torque available to the wheels."

 

[4570Man]

If in a 20 gears transmission or even a simple 12x12, you can't find the right speed for mowing, you're just being picky at that point.

I have 12 and I've had no problems on finding the right gear, and if I did have a problem (highly unlikely), I could still change between 540 or 540E at the PTO to fine tune that speed.

The point is, you can't more similar tractors that those used in the video, and it's clear which one can deliver more power before wheel spin or relief valve opening.

Has anyone actually confirmed if the ratios between the two tractors are that different? I'm willing to bet that the range and diff ratios will be pretty close if not the same.

Anyways, as Mat4644 said before: "Any way you slice or dice it the HST will always have less torque available to the wheels."

The Kubota tractor in question doesn’t have 20 gears or 12. It has 4 gears with a hi/low. And that gear combination definitely leaves you wanting a different speed. And it’s not just Kubota. Pretty much no compact tractors on this side of the pond has the gear trans offerings a bigger tractor does. I have no doubt the geared tractor did deliver more power but it’s probably 10 percent more not 300 percent more. Jerking the chain was a huge problem and different gear ratios further skewed the results. If you had a tire in between 2 chains for some cushion it would be a better test. Or just chain the tractor together.

 

[ptsg]

The Kubota tractor in question doesn’t have 20 gears or 12. It has 4 gears with a hi/low. And that gear combination definitely leaves you wanting a different speed. And it’s not just Kubota. Pretty much no compact tractors on this side of the pond has the gear trans offerings a bigger tractor does. I have no doubt the geared tractor did deliver more power but it’s probably 10 percent more not 300 percent more. Jerking the chain was a huge problem and different gear ratios further skewed the results. If you had a tire in between 2 chains for some cushion it would be a better test. Or just chain the tractor together.

The jerking of the chain you keep pointing out, was only the one time he was actually in 2WD and he didn't even count that number for obvious reasons. All the remaining pulls were done smoothly, plus one can clearly see that he is not using the max read value on the scale. He actually pulls, let it stabilize a couple seconds and just presses the Hold button.

 

[deezler]

Neil was measuring pulling FORCE.
Force is not the same as Power.
A 15 hp 20 ton tractor can pull with a lot more Force than a 1000 hp 3 ton tractor. There’s a YouTube video of an old steam tractor hooked up back to back with a pulling tractor.
... but the 1000 hp 3 ton has more pulling Power...but not in that test when it’s spinning and getting pulled backwards.. if that makes sense.

Makes total sense. Work = Force * Distance. Power = Work / Time (ie the rate at which work is done).

 

[Beeenvenue]

If in a 20 gears transmission or even a simple 12x12, you can't find the right speed for mowing, you're just being picky at that point.

I have 12 and I've had no problems on finding the right gear, and if I did have a problem (highly unlikely), I could still change between 540 or 540E at the PTO to fine tune that speed.

The point is, you can't more similar tractors that those used in the video, and it's clear which one can deliver more power before wheel spin or relief valve opening.

Has anyone actually confirmed if the ratios between the two tractors are that different? I'm willing to bet that the range and diff ratios will be pretty close if not the same.

Anyways, as Mat4644 said before: "Any way you slice or dice it the HST will always have less torque available to the wheels."

Come to my land. Continuous undulations, I am constantly feathering my hst pedal up and down. Constantly. There’s no way I could drive without hst.

 

[ptsg]

Come to my land. Continuous undulations, I am constantly feathering my hst pedal up and down. Constantly. There’s no way I could drive without hst.

I wonder how people worked with tractors before the HST came out...

 

[oosik]

My tractor - Kubota M6040 - is geared( Hydraulic Shuttle shift ). Its "pulling power" is directly controlled by TRACTION. I have NEVER been in a situation where the "load" stopped all four wheels from spinning or killed the engine.

Believe me - I had some really hard pulls. Grading the driveway and the rear blade gets hooked up with the bedrock. The tractor stops DEAD - all four wheels start digging holes.


Or pulling my single bottom, moldboard plow. It has hooked up with bedrock and stopped the tractor. All four wheels begin digging holes.

 

[Smokeydog]

Have had many tractors with different transmissions. For a mixed use machine the hst is a clear winner. The “hst plus”, fingertip control of two speeds in each of three ranges in a pleasure to use on the Kubota M59.

Every machine configuration has advantages and compromise. Easy to get lost in the numbers, %, tires, etc. Finding what works best for you every day to be productive is the joy of farming.

 

[4570Man]

I wonder how people worked with tractors before the HST came out...

The people before that worked it with horses. That doesn’t mean the HST isn’t easier and safer.

 

[ptsg]

The people before that worked it with horses. That doesn’t mean the HST isn’t easier and safer.

So they went from horses, straight to HST tractors? That's why some people are so afraid of a clutch pedal? :laughing:

I know HST is easier but not wouldn't really consider one safer than the other. Both are pretty much the same safety wise.

 

[Cougsfan]

I think it is all a matter of personal preference and on how you use your compact tractor. Any slight difference in "pulling power" is negated by these factors, and probably shouldn't even be a point of consideration. If pulling power is really an issue, you probably should consider a bigger tractor.

 

[ptsg]

Safety boils down to the knowledge and attitude of the operator far more than the features and capabilities of any machine.
You simply have to be smarter than whatever you are trying to use. If not, you're probably going to get hurt or killed.

Exactly. :thumbsup: