Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[Gale Hawkins]

Wouldn't there be three motors running to make cool air? Compressor, Evaporator and Condensor Fans? That seems like a lot of electrical energy.

Yes there is a lot of electrical energy in a 400 volt 630 pound battery.

 

[Grumpycat]

smart to have smaller pump and more efficient than running whole engine for sure.

It also means the air conditioner compressor runs at the speed it needs to run in traffic or on interstate or soccer mom mode. Tesla and Prius use motor controllers to run the speed needed.

Perhaps best of all it means the compressor and motor can be sealed in a can just like a refrigerator or home HVAC. No shaft seals to leak coolant.

 

[Industrial Toys]

In this day and age, you would think that would be WAY too practical. MAYBE with a complex electronic/computer module in the same envelope. THEN, you get to replace the Motor AND Compressor when the electronics go pooof!

Just got off the phone with a friend. He is having a terrible time trying to install an Inverter and extra batteries on a FORD POLICE EXPLORER, HYBRID!

 

[Grumpycat]

Wouldn't there be three motors running to make cool air? Compressor, Evaporator and Condensor Fans? That seems like a lot of electrical energy.

No more than has to be pulled from engine to run air conditioning.

My Model S draws 20 kW from battery at 70 MPH. That is like 80A from a 240VAC outlet.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I realize that. It just sounded like someone thought the compressor load was all that was required to make cool air.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I realize that. It just sounded like someone thought the compressor load was all that was required to make cool air.

What is really cool I mean warm is in I think 2013 Nissan went with heat pumps for SV and SL trim lines but the S trim still had the resistive heat system. In our 2016 SL I can start feeling heat in like 20 seconds when air temps are around 40F and in 45 seconds when down to 15-20F degrees.

In the case with Nissan the jury is still out as it and that was pre Covid. Ghosn said in Jan 2020 that Nissan would be in bankruptcy in 2022 so that was pre Covid. Nissan is hoping it is a case of sour grapes I expect. They are talking about coming out with a new EV that competes with Tesla Model 3 at the same price of the Model 3. I question there are enough Tesla haters to pull that off.

The car industry now: the future of the Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi Alliance | Autocar

 

[Grumpycat]

What is really cool I mean warm is in I think 2013 Nissan went with heat pumps for SV and SL trim lines but the S trim still had the resistive heat system. In our 2016 SL I can start feeling heat in like 20 seconds when air temps are around 40F and in 45 seconds when down to 15-20F degrees.

2007 Prius had resistive heat in the air ducts of the windshield defrost. Windshield defrost mode was an option for quick heat.

2009 Mercedes-Benz ML320 Bluetec also had resistor strips to heat the cabin quicker. No mention in the owner's manual but one could smell them early in the season when burning off the summer's grime. Warm air within 1/4 mile.

Tesla doesn't use heat pump for heat. All heat comes from resistance heat strips. The Tesla app on smartphone can remotely control the HVAC, set temperature. Warm or cool the car before you get to it. Especially useful if the car is connected to the power grid as the power doesn't come from the battery.

My Subaru Outback has rear window style heat strips on the base of the windshield nominally to release frozen windshield wipers.

 

[sd455dan]

2007 Prius had resistive heat in the air ducts of the windshield defrost. Windshield defrost mode was an option for quick heat.

2009 Mercedes-Benz ML320 Bluetec also had resistor strips to heat the cabin quicker. No mention in the owner's manual but one could smell them early in the season when burning off the summer's grime. Warm air within 1/4 mile.

Tesla doesn't use heat pump for heat. All heat comes from resistance heat strips. The Tesla app on smartphone can remotely control the HVAC, set temperature. Warm or cool the car before you get to it. Especially useful if the car is connected to the power grid as the power doesn't come from the battery.

My Subaru Outback has rear window style heat strips on the base of the windshield nominally to release frozen windshield wipers.

Think things have changed with the model Y and it's new Octovalve and redesigned heat pump.

Tesla's Octovalve Enabled A Staggering 1?% Increase In Range For The Model Y

 

[sd455dan]

troubles with Fords Escape PHEV charging ... Sales halted and do not charge instruction due to Fire hazard


Ford Kuga/Escape PHEV Sales Halted For Fire Risk: Owners Told Not To Charge

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Sounds like all new EV makers have a learning curve to get past. I hate this because Europe is demanding EV's more and more.

 

[sd455dan]

Sounds like all new EV makers have a learning curve to get past. I hate this because Europe is demanding EV's more and more.

Yes, the learning Curve

and Now small tractors Cost being the hurdle , but once cost parity with diesel happens:thumbsup:

Cute little tractor and a fun video- Lots of good points made to.

 

[Oaktree]

and Now small tractors Cost being the hurdle , but once cost parity with diesel happens:thumbsup:

Actually, S/CUTs make more sense to be electric than on-road vehicles. Rarely taken far from home, and generally used for only a few hours at a time. Heating/AC not an issue unless you have a cab.
Only potential drawback would be whether enough users have electricity anywhere close to where they typically park their tractor (I don't), and how exposure to the elements would affect the electronics/motors.

Big ag tractors that are run from sunup to sundown, maybe not.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Battery Day is Coming! | In Depth - YouTube

Some still see Tesla as a vehicle manufacturing company but that has never been the stated objective of Elon Musk.

Moving to become an electric utility in the UK is the example how they can make the Tesla's that will be coming with millon mile batteries worth $36,000.00 to the owner.

Tesla is officially approved as electric utility in the UK — but why? - Electrek

In the past 10 months of EV ownership with the 2016 Nissan Leaf SL has changed my views about EV's and use of sustainable renewable energy. In my case I learn better by hands on so I knew I needed to get an EV to learn faster for other family members that will become EV owners as the ICE power plant technology usage will decline every decade going forward. My electronic training happened in 1974-1975 in Millington TN thanks to the USN training schools so I have to learn so much tech today for an underlying understanding.

What is cool is much of understanding to be gained from owning an EV can be learned from buying a $200 battery powered chainsaw. The battery is the tail that wags the dog.

 

[cqaigy2]

Actually, S/CUTs make more sense to be electric than on-road vehicles. Rarely taken far from home, and generally used for only a few hours at a time. Heating/AC not an issue unless you have a cab.
Only potential drawback would be whether enough users have electricity anywhere close to where they typically park their tractor (I don't), and how exposure to the elements would affect the electronics/motors.

Big ag tractors that are run from sunup to sundown, maybe not.

Sure, most ag tractors and equipment are used as long as possible during the harvest season, even swapping out operators. Seems like one would need, either a big extension cord connected to electric source or swapping batteries.

 

[airbiscuit]

Sure, most ag tractors and equipment are used as long as possible during the harvest season, even swapping out operators. Seems like one would need, either a big extension cord connected to electric source or swapping batteries.

I can see all those large outbuildings covered with solar panels charging batteries for the tractors and combines. A driverless mule would bring out freshly charged battery modules to be swapped out with the expired ones (just like changing batteries on your cordless drill). All without contributing to the fortunes of Big Oil.

 

[drssg]

The batteries for vehicles are quite large, heavy, and expensive. IIRC, there were early suggestions for swapping out batteries in cars, and it was deemed impractical. It's not like swapping out a battery on a cordless drill.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

What to Expect from Tesla's Battery Day - TheStreet

I like your image of driver-less mules showing up with hot batteries for the tractors as needed.

The up coming 2020 Tesla Battery Day is expected to bring news about their acquisitions of late and its short and long term impact on moving EV technology forward. Quality solar panels is changing the renewable energy game. Some farmers are earning income by leasing land for wind generation equipment.

 

[drssg]

Some farmers are earning income by leasing land for wind generation equipment.

My family has owned some farm land for a few generations. I met with the farmer that's leasing it last weekend, and the windmills came up in the conversation. According to him, the farmers get money from government subsidies, and those last for about 20 years. After that, the general technology is not financially sustainable on its own. It seemed like a sad waste to me.

 

[5030]

My family has owned some farm land for a few generations. I met with the farmer that's leasing it last weekend, and the windmills came up in the conversation. According to him, the farmers get money from government subsidies, and those last for about 20 years. After that, the general technology is not financially sustainable on its own. It seemed like a sad waste to me.

Just like the solar 'farm' crap If the powers to be want to build a wind farm, build it around DC. Plenty of wind there....

 

[Grumpycat]

The batteries for vehicles are quite large, heavy, and expensive. IIRC, there were early suggestions for swapping out batteries in cars, and it was deemed impractical. It's not like swapping out a battery on a cordless drill.

Tesla has a robotic battery changer which will swap the battery in my Model S in 90 seconds. For the brief period it was in operation the cost was $80 to swap a loaner battery which after a period of time one was expected to return that battery to recover one's own. One has to be a California Millionaire Nutcase for that to make any sense.

Intelligentsia academic egghead armchair quarterbacks who have never actually had to make anything that worked, all think battery swap is the solution. These are the same geniuses who see cars at gas stations then assume EVs also need "gas stations" on every street corner.

The problem with battery swap is that the battery is a wear item which can be abused. To swap the battery one must charge (monetary) rate commensurate with the wear imparted.

Now lets say you have a $20,000 battery which is good for 250,000 miles. At 5% interest you have to charge $1000/year just to cover the investment. You have to charge $20,000/250,000 = $0.08/mile for wear. At $0.15/kWh you have to charge $0.057/mile for electricity.

Not including the cost of real estate to house a battery swap business, or the cost of employees, one has to charge $0.137/mile and $19.23/week just to break even.

$0.137/mile works out to the equivalent of 22 MPG$ of gasoline at $3.00/gallon.

If in California or NYC where electricity cost is $0.25/kWh then $0.095 + $0.08 = $0.175/mile for 17 MPG$ vs $3.00/gallon gasoline.

Still no profit for the business. Nothing to pay employees. Nothing to pay insurance. No rainy day fund for unexpected expenses.

The economics of swap do not work.

Now consider the failing businesses who are trying to provide fast DC charging? Blink comes to mind. A 50 kW (kW is rate, kWh is quantity) DC charge is billed at $0.59/kWh. A Tesla Model S consumes 0.380 kWh/mile so this is the cost equivalent of 5 MPG$ vs $3 gasoline. Tesla charges $0.26/kWh which isn't very good either.

$0.26/kWh is 20 MPG$ vs $2.00 gasoline.

The only way for EV economics to work is to charge at home for $0.10/kWh as I do. Thats 52 MPG$ vs $2.00 gasoline. It doesn't include wear on the battery. But gasoline MPG doesn't include maintenance or replacement cost of engine.