Kioti Dk35 HSE won't start

[kantuckid]

I'll do that key hole thing. The intermittent starts seemed quirky until I got a no start and jumped it as stated early on and it might have been something like a key as the ole OE battery actually should have still been hanging on. I'm going to confirm the clutch switch too.
My old DK40 no start issues were much different solution than relays, etc. as discussed here. Had to buy several pricey parts to cure that one.
Since the start/stop relays have same part #'s is the two different four letter ID's a hint to their role in starting no matter which firewall post they're mounted on?

 

[justman777]

I'll do that key hole thing. The intermittent starts seemed quirky until I got a no start and jumped it as stated early on and it might have been something like a key as the ole OE battery actually should have still been hanging on. I'm going to confirm the clutch switch too.
My old DK40 no start issues were much different solution than relays, etc. as discussed here. Had to buy several pricey parts to cure that one.
Since the start/stop relays have same part #'s is the two different four letter ID's a hint to their role in starting no matter which firewall post they're mounted on?

Relays are relays, so long as they have the same internal config. Should be interchangeable.

 

[kantuckid]

Relays are relays, so long as they have the same internal config. Should be interchangeable.

I know the relays are basically generic, but question was why they had same part number but different codes?

 

[justman777]

I know the relays are basically generic, but question was why they had same part number but different codes?

That's a good question. I imagine it's just to distinguish them from another when ordering parts or accounting for them on the assembly line.

 

[kantuckid]

Update: After switching the one new 20/30 relay back and forth with the original relays the tractor never started, only a faint click. Today I had my trophy wife sit in the seat and push clutch and turn on ignition switch. I jumped the starter solenoid and tractor starts instantly and runs normal.
I then took all 3 small relays-engine start and stop 20/30 versions and the 70 amp relay. My Kioti shop manual shows the continuity checks for those three relays and they all read the same as they should per the manual.
The original owner gave me a parts box which I'd forgot what was in there included a replaced ignition key switch pigtail assy. I took it apart and it' easily seen that he probably wasted his money or his dealer had milked the warranty back when. They come apart via one screw and other than the key cylinder there's a solid copper disc and a phenolic plate with copper buttons on it matching wires. Certainly not much to be wrong other than corrosion.

Conclusion is that I have not a clue whats ailing this tractor? My old DK40 the timer relay (2x3 gold box on firewall) was it's issue.
Back to those two, 20/30 blue OE relays with the different 4 letter codes-Kioti shop manual states for both the same terminal #'s and electrical values too.

 

[kantuckid]

While tinkering for a start solution I decided to take a look see at my ignition switch. There are three 10mm/phillips head screws that hold the two plastic halves together around the ignition switch. Two uppers thread into a brass ferrule which is molded into the plastic. Galvanic action takes over and they both twisted off. Lower one is steel on steel and no issues. It evolved that I had to drill out the brass, re-tap threads for original 6mm screws. I put back SS panhead screws for the next time. Beware when you pop the ignition switch apart as there's a spring loaded ball bearing in there which can fly! Actually, like said in post above, there's no need to go beyond the simple copper plate and contacts anyway. I have all three relays on order now. Will check my clutch and seat switch this p.m..

 

[kantuckid]

Yesterday I got itchy and took another look/see at what has been an intermittent start issue. I engaged the clutch pedal hold spring, climbed up and tractor started like new? Other than remove the relays for testing, I've found nor seen any abnormalities, but I did order all 3 firewall mtd. relays. I then took off the dash large panel and ignition switch enclosure too, thinking I was looking for a "clutch position switch", i.e., the one that I thought allowed a start-up when fully depressing the clutch pedal. If there's one in there, I've not found it? Location is where?
Seems like my old DK40 had such a switch and I thought I'd seen reference here that this DK35SE has one too.
I replaced the plastic panels and tried it again-starts like normal. I'm back to where I was when I tested the three relays, have no clue why it quit starting before I bought a new battery a week ago which made zero difference. I will add that the tractor does start with more pizazz than it did on the 125 month old battery.

 

[kantuckid]

Latest is that after using the tractor a few times by leaving off the left side panel and jumping the solenoid the tractor stopped starting by the terminal jumping. I pulled the starter and found nobody without a very long trip that could test my starter electrically. I ordered a new starter on Ebay for $74/fre shipping that fits many diesel tractors.
Replacing all three relays nor cleaning up frame ground made any difference. I called a dealer tech who's ~ 2 hours from me and closest one, he said he has few starting issues with these in my tractors age group and had no idea what to look at next.
If you have ideas, I'm all ears?

 

[k0ua]

If you have ideas, I'm all ears?

My advice would be to stop "shotgunning" and guessing and start troubleshooting. Grab your voltmeter and your wife, when the tractor won't start. start making voltage measurements to determine where the problem is. I always start on the top of the battery post and attempt to crank the tractor (this is what the wife does). work you way out to the battery cable terminals, then work you way to the other end of the battery terminals, and the frame ground connection. Looking for an abnormal voltage drop. If no problems there start at the coil of the start relay and see if the start relay has voltage to pull up the start relay, Key switch not making? then does the start relays contacts pull up and send voltage to the starter solenoid, Does the starter solenoid pull in and on and on. There is a REASON The starter does not spin. FIND THAT REASON. Starter failures are VERY rare compared to all the other reasons a tractor starter will not spin. I would estimate in 100 no crank situations the starter is to blame about 1 or 2 percent of the time.

The scientific method for troubleshooting ALWAYS works to find the problem with no money invested.. BUT you must use logic and tenacity to form a hypothesis and then test that hypothesis. The shotgunning approach is easy but seldom works and is very costly.

The scientific method is to first sit down and ask yourself, "why doesn't my starter spin the engine?" Form a hypothesis then test that hypothesis. My first hypothesis would be "my starter does not spin because there is no or a very low voltage at the starter terminals". NOW test that theory.

Of course since your problem is intermittent your problem is far worse than a problem that is continuously there. You can only hope and pray that your problem will manifest itself completely and fully. NOW you will be able to troubleshoot it much easier.

I haven't seen where you mentioned using your voltmeter and making any measurements.

 

[Ranchofla]

Latest is that after using the tractor a few times by leaving off the left side panel and jumping the solenoid the tractor stopped starting by the terminal jumping. I pulled the starter and found nobody without a very long trip that could test my starter electrically. I ordered a new starter on Ebay for $74/fre shipping that fits many diesel tractors.
Replacing all three relays nor cleaning up frame ground made any difference. I called a dealer tech who's ~ 2 hours from me and closest one, he said he has few starting issues with these in my tractors age group and had no idea what to look at next.
If you have ideas, I'm all ears?

Have you looked at the plug between the ignition switch and the wiring harness, I have found corrosion on my CK there that I think has caused intermittent starting issue for me.

Rancho
CK-20 HST

 

[ritcheyvs]

Latest is that after using the tractor a few times by leaving off the left side panel and jumping the solenoid the tractor stopped starting by the terminal jumping. I pulled the starter and found nobody without a very long trip that could test my starter electrically. I ordered a new starter on Ebay for $74/fre shipping that fits many diesel tractors.
Replacing all three relays nor cleaning up frame ground made any difference. I called a dealer tech who's ~ 2 hours from me and closest one, he said he has few starting issues with these in my tractors age group and had no idea what to look at next.
If you have ideas, I'm all ears?

Hey Kid: What James (K0ua) said.

Use your head instead of your credit card. These mechanical-injected Kiotis are simple, electrically, (compared to newer ones with black boxes) and anyone should be able to diagnose electrical problems with a few tools, like a voltmeter, a schematic, and a helper. This is super-important with intermittent problems because a dealer must either replace all suspect parts or keep your machine until the problem repeats (could be months).

I assume your "won't start" problem means the starter doesn't crank. So I will suggest a bad battery cable (or connector) as a possible cause if jumping the starter won't make the starter spin. A bad cable is normally a rare problem but it has been common in some Kiotis. Measure the voltage at the starter when you try to crank the engine (both with the key and starter jumper). Try bypassing the cables (one at a time) with jumper cables. Turn on the headlights and see if they come on and dim or go out when you try to crank.

 

[k0ua]

Hey Kid: What James (K0ua) said.

Use your head instead of your credit card. These mechanical-injected Kiotis are simple, electrically, (compared to newer ones with black boxes) and anyone should be able to diagnose electrical problems with a few tools, like a voltmeter, a schematic, and a helper. This is super-important with intermittent problems because a dealer must either replace all suspect parts or keep your machine until the problem repeats (could be months).

I assume your "won't start" problem means the starter doesn't crank. So I will suggest a bad battery cable (or connector) as a possible cause if jumping the starter won't make the starter spin. A bad cable is normally a rare problem but it has been common in some Kiotis. Measure the voltage at the starter when you try to crank the engine (both with the key and starter jumper). Try bypassing the cables (one at a time) with jumper cables. Turn on the headlights and see if they come on and dim or go out when you try to crank.

Rgr that. I have worked in shops with tech's whose only tool was the "shotgun". Just start replacing parts until the problem goes away. Of course they never took any of the new parts out to find out if it was needed. Just charge for them all. They had never heard of scientific method and diagnostics. Some techs, and I might add many at dealerships use this method because they literally don't know any better.

 

[kantuckid]

Actually I did say that I had a Kioti shop manual and had measured the 3 small relays to find they showed no abnormalities. Shotgunning?, well perhaps I qualify? I did check out/troubleshoot the starter on the tractor before reaching for plastic CC, thank you.
The battery is new and HOT and the cables are very good.
Manual does show a pic of a timer relay box ~ 2" x 3" on firewall such as I replaced on my old DK40 some years back but I don't see one on this tractor but also shows in manuals diagram. Does my DK35SE have one? Michigan Iron parts fiche shows only the engine stop solenoid and a "Twin relay,motor" on left side of firewall, as two parts I've not looked at.
I'm no electrical genius but I am a retired pro mechanic/auto tech teacher(work history of Euro cars,aviation/helos and industry/ 8,000 hour apprenticeship plus over 50 yrs of wrenching my own motorcycles)
Seems to be open season for critics here? No, I am not thin skinned nor seeking to act like I know it all. I don't think we worked together... Roger that?

 

[grsthegreat]

What year is thetractor. I remember about 5-6 years ago my stop solenoid failed. Its attached to the injector rail. I manually removed it and opened the rail. Tractor fired right up. Mine is a 2010 model dk45.....


Correction. I reread yours and see its not even trying to turn over. Never mind

Without doing this tractor motor just spun, not even trying to start.

 

[k0ua]

Actually I did say that I had a Kioti shop manual and had measured the 3 small relays to find they showed no abnormalities. Shotgunning?, well perhaps I qualify? I did check out/troubleshoot the starter on the tractor before reaching for plastic CC, thank you.
The battery is new and HOT and the cables are very good.
Manual does show a pic of a timer relay box ~ 2" x 3" on firewall such as I replaced on my old DK40 some years back but I don't see one on this tractor but also shows in manuals diagram. Does my DK35SE have one? Michigan Iron parts fiche shows only the engine stop solenoid and a "Twin relay,motor" on left side of firewall, as two parts I've not looked at.
I'm no electrical genius but I am a retired pro mechanic/auto tech teacher(work history of Euro cars,aviation/helos and industry/ 8,000 hour apprenticeship plus over 50 yrs of wrenching my own motorcycles)
Seems to be open season for critics here? No, I am not thin skinned nor seeking to act like I know it all. I don't think we worked together... Roger that?

OK. lets start over. right now if you go out to the barn an attempt to start the tractor, by turning the key switch to the glow position and assuming the glow lamp goes out and then you turn the key to the start position, exactly what happens at that point? if the engine does not crank, what exactly do you hear?

 

[ritcheyvs]

Actually I did say that I had a Kioti shop manual and had measured the 3 small relays to find they showed no abnormalities. Shotgunning?, well perhaps I qualify? I did check out/troubleshoot the starter on the tractor before reaching for plastic CC, thank you.
The battery is new and HOT and the cables are very good.
Manual does show a pic of a timer relay box ~ 2" x 3" on firewall such as I replaced on my old DK40 some years back but I don't see one on this tractor but also shows in manuals diagram. Does my DK35SE have one? Michigan Iron parts fiche shows only the engine stop solenoid and a "Twin relay,motor" on left side of firewall, as two parts I've not looked at.
I'm no electrical genius but I am a retired pro mechanic/auto tech teacher(work history of Euro cars,aviation/helos and industry/ 8,000 hour apprenticeship plus over 50 yrs of wrenching my own motorcycles)
Seems to be open season for critics here? No, I am not thin skinned nor seeking to act like I know it all. I don't think we worked together... Roger that?

Not to correct a retired pro mechanic but this brute-force starter test depends ONLY on the battery, battery cables, and starter; nothing else matters.

 

[k0ua]

Not to correct a retired pro mechanic but this brute-force starter test depends ONLY on the battery, battery cables, and starter; nothing else matters.

That little white paper really boils it down to the essentials doesn't it?

 

[kantuckid]

OK, lets try this updated message(my computer has been kaput as was running, well sort of running on old,original Windows 7-got it back today and can now type the entire alphabet):
The tractor NOW! starts and runs just fine...:thumbsup:
I'm not out to prove anything here wrenching wise and not interested in defaming those many members here who go out of their way to help tractor owners. As previously stated I ran through the entire Kioti shop manual list of checks for a no start. Credit cards were involved in a new battery to replace ten yr old original Interstate battery, three new relays and a new starter, define that as you choose.
Here what changes were made to the tractor since it began to either start "sometimes" & then eventually failed to start at all:
Replaced ten year old battery (then started OK by jumping the solenoid but eventually/later stopped all together)
Cleaned ground to frame connection
Bought new relays inspite of fact they tested OK on bench
After installing the new Chinese ebay starter I put the original relays back into place.
At that point the tractor began starting normally and has been in use since then. The old original starter was the issue, not the relays, ground connection, etc.. back before issues, the battery had gotten a bit tired but would start the tractor OK if I kept it on the Battery Tender. it's possible the old battery had internal issues but showed just enough voltage to crank per above.
Thanks for suggestions made here. I do enjoy greasy talk at that. Mike

 

[k0ua]

So you are the 1 in a 100 where the "my tractor wont' start" cure was a new starter then? Now for S & G's put the old starter back in and then you will have run a double blind study.

 

[DK35vince]

So you are the 1 in a 100 where the "my tractor wont' start" cure was a new starter then?

2 in a 100.
I had to put a starter in mine last year. Wouldn't start.