2350 hard start after running

[TDIdog]

Folks, I'm looking at this 2350 that, after sitting, it starts fine, but after you shut it down and go to restart, it cranks very slowly. My experience in Yellow Deere the sounds and feel of it tells me that the hydraulics are staying loaded. It has no electric destroke valve on the pump (unless it's on the bottom, I didn't look there). Turning the steering wheel when starting didn't help it crank faster. I also lifted the loader, shut it off and lowered the loader while starting and it's still loaded. When operating any of the loader functions to end of stroke, the pump destrokes so those reliefs are good.

I'm not familiar with Ag stuff, so I'm hampered a bit there. As I understand it, the two levers to the right of the PTO lever are for the coupler valves on the back. When I move the lever next to the PTO forward, the engine loads up, but it doesn't load up when it's moved to the rear or the other lever is operated. I did a touchy-feely-warm test and the only thing I found that got warm faster than everything else is a cover on the clutch housing right where the suction (I think they are suction) lines come out of the transmission. There is what I believe to be a check ball behind a plug there so I pulled it out and nothing was amiss.

I have been doing some homework and I realized that the three point may not be lifting all the way. It has a small blade on it and it only lifts about 3 inches off the ground. it seems like it should go higher than that.

It looks like I should go back out there and pull the trans fill cap while running to see if the rockshaft is spraying oil.

So if there is a problem with the SCV control valve, is that the block on the side above the trans filter? Would that knob in front of the seat have anything to do with this? Or could there be a problem with the 3 point system? What else am i missing that I need to check?

In other news, the transmission shift levers are leaking. Is this a remove the cab and split the tractor kinda deal? If there is a problem with the 3 point, then it may be worth fixing the leaking shift shafts since the cab needs to come off, otherwise, a drain pan will work.

As always, thank you for any help.

 

[RalphVa]

Could be a starter issue that shows up when hot. Had a 1957 Chrysler that was that way.

Ralph

 

[TDIdog]

It's not electrical, it's hydraulic.

 

[CADplans]

We had a 1100 Massey Ferguson with a Perkins diesel that was like that,,
EVERYTHING on the exterior of the engine was checked, including the hydraulics,,

NO problem was ever found, I was convinced it was excess carbon in the cylinder, or something like that, that would increase the compression when the engine was hot.

We simply idled it through lunch, or any other daytime stop,,,

The tractor was sold at an auction before a problem was ever found,,,

 

[ruffdog]

Can the OP manually turn the engine over with a wrench when it is cold/warm to compare?

 

[Tx Jim]

I'm confused when you state "" the two levers to the right of the PTO lever are for the coupler valves on the back"" as I remember no 2 levers immediately to the right of pto control lever.

Does your 2350 have older style steering with a drag link from steering valve to frt axle or external steering cylinders? IMHO turning steering wheel back & forth on hydrostatic PS with external cylinders will not de-stroke frt pump easily as old style power steering. If tractor is open station have battery ground cables been relocated from attaching to rusty battery box to engine block or starter mounting bolt? I would suggest to install hyd pump manual de-stoking screw(Key 40) RE13271 SCREW, PUMP SHUT-OFF ASSEMBLY ADD 43.98 USD . Key 1 which is $13 cheaper is a different type screw that has a long history of o-ring failure creating a hyd oil leak. There's also an electrically operated DS screw for more $$$$$

Part number for de-stroking screw will be determined by which hyd pump your tractor has because I just GUESSED about hyd pump type.

 

[Zebrafive]

Shift levers leaking could be a number of things, depending if you have Independent PTO, Hi-Lo, or reverser transmission. There is a vent hose that could be leaking/missing/cracked, housing gasket, and several O-rings.

 

[Tx Jim]

Knob in frt of seat is 3 pt rate of drop screw. I overlooked tractor is a cab model but I'll still advise to relocate battery ground cables to engine block or starter mounting bolt. On 3 pt lifting height try relocating L/D control knob(key 1) to determine if 3 pt will raise higher

 

[TDIdog]

Knob in frt of seat is 3 pt rate of drop screw. I overlooked tractor is a cab model but I'll still advise to relocate battery ground cables to engine block or starter mounting bolt. On 3 pt lifting height try relocating L/D control knob(key 1) to determine if 3 pt will raise higher

Ok, that could be the only problem there. In other words, my ignorance of things green. Owner is someplace warm with no snow for a couple of weeks, so I can't ask him about that. Thanks for the picture.

 

[TDIdog]

I'm confused when you state "" the two levers to the right of the PTO lever are for the coupler valves on the back"" as I remember no 2 levers immediately to the right of pto control lever.

Does your 2350 have older style steering with a drag link from steering valve to frt axle or external steering cylinders? IMHO turning steering wheel back & forth on hydrostatic PS with external cylinders will not de-stroke frt pump easily as old style power steering. If tractor is open station have battery ground cables been relocated from attaching to rusty battery box to engine block or starter mounting bolt? I would suggest to install hyd pump manual de-stoking screw(Key 40) RE13271 SCREW, PUMP SHUT-OFF ASSEMBLY ADD 43.98 USD . Key 1 which is $13 cheaper is a different type screw that has a long history of o-ring failure creating a hyd oil leak. There's also an electrically operated DS screw for more $$$$$

Part number for de-stroking screw will be determined by which hyd pump your tractor has because I just GUESSED about hyd pump type.

You're confused because I said PTO instead of threepoint.

It is MFWD with the single steering cylinder.

That was a good guess on which pump.

As far as bad grounds, I would expect that to be an issue after it get warm, or it would be intermittent. The hard start will happen after just a couple minutes of running so I am putting electrical lower on my list. I have only started it cold once, so I will do more double-checking on how long it takes to start hard. I have dealt with a few Deere that had either a destroke solenoid problem and one backhoe that had a hammer valve solenoid stuck on, so whats on top of my list is a high pressure hydraulic leak.

 

[Tx Jim]

No here's what I stated
[/quote]I'm confused when you state "" the two levers to the right of the PTO lever are for the coupler valves on the back"" as I remember no 2 levers immediately to the right of pto control lever.[/quote]
I see no mention of three point in previous statement.

BUT SCV control levers are to the RH side of 3 pt control lever when operator is sitting in tractor seat

 

[TDIdog]

No here's what I stated

I'm confused when you state "" the two levers to the right of the PTO lever are for the coupler valves on the back"" as I remember no 2 levers immediately to the right of pto control lever.[/quote]
I see no mention of three point in previous statement.

BUT SCV control levers are to the RH side of 3 pt control lever when operator is sitting in tractor seat[/QUOTE]

Right. My post said that the reason you were confused is because I said PTO, not three point. I made a mistake when I originally said PTO instead of threepoint. I should have said exactly what you said in that last paragraph. The control levers to the right of the three point lever.

So, shouldn't the pump destroke when those SCV levers are moved to the end of their travel? I ask this because when I move the SCV lever right next to the PTO lever all the way forward the engine stays loaded and the pump stays in stroke. If I move either of the SCV levers all the way to the end of their travel - except the left hand SCV lever moved all the way forward - the pump stays in stroke.

 

[beenthere]

TDldog

Some adjustments likely needed, either linkage or relief valves, or both.

 

[jd110]

So, shouldn't the pump destroke when those SCV levers are moved to the end of their travel? I ask this because when I move the SCV lever right next to the PTO lever all the way forward the engine stays loaded and the pump stays in stroke. If I move either of the SCV levers all the way to the end of their travel - except the left hand SCV lever moved all the way forward - the pump stays in stroke.

You are correct that the pump should not be loading the engine when scv levers are moved when there is nothing plugged into the rear couplers. There are 2 pressure and 2 return valves inside of each scv that have teflon seats on them. Most likely one or more of those valves has debris embedded in those seats that is causing it to leak internally. This debris gets in there from people failing to clean hose tips or inside of coupler socket before plugging in hoses. I have probably replaced thousands of those valves in the past 42 years. Sometimes the seat in housing is damaged as well and needs to be dressed up with special tool. ts of parts inside of those scv's. You will want a technical manual before you disassemble it. Adjusting valve clearances requires a dial indicator to make them work properly.

 

[Tx Jim]

jd110
2350's had option of poppet or spool valve scv's. As you're well aware the solution to oil leaking internally with spool control valve is replacement of complete component not repair. It will be interesting to know which type scv TDIdog's tractor has.

 

[Tx Jim]

So, shouldn't the pump destroke when those SCV levers are moved to the end of their travel? I ask this because when I move the SCV lever right next to the """"PTO lever"""" all the way forward the engine stays loaded and the pump stays in stroke. If I move either of the SCV levers all the way to the end of their travel - except the left hand SCV lever moved all the way forward - the pump stays in stroke.

You stated """pto lever""" again. Actually pump is designed to automatically de-stroke when hyd pressure inside hyd components reaches set stand-by pressure. Obviously a high pressure internal or external leak keeps pump from de-stroking.

 

[jd110]

jd110
2350's had option of poppet or spool valve scv's. As you're well aware the solution to oil leaking internally with spool control valve is replacement of complete component not repair. It will be interesting to know which type scv TDIdog's tractor has.

You are correct Jim. Most 50 series we sold had the more deluxe poppet valves, so it slips my mind sometimes that the spool valve is a possibility. At that ime period, most spool valves were on government bid situations. The spool valves were cheaper, so they were spec that way to compete with other brands that didn't have the "deluxe" poppet valves. Today, the spool valves are the norm. Deluxe valves are electronic controlled spool valves. Makes you wonder what "improvements" we will see next. Scary at times.

 

[TDIdog]

You stated """pto lever""" again. Actually pump is designed to automatically de-stroke when hyd pressure inside hyd components reaches set stand-by pressure. Obviously a high pressure internal or external leak keeps pump from de-stroking.

AGAIN? My parents did actually have one or two smart kids. I'm glad that you translated my mistake. I'm mean autocorrect! It was autocorrect.

 

[TDIdog]

jd110
2350's had option of poppet or spool valve scv's. As you're well aware the solution to oil leaking internally with spool control valve is replacement of complete component not repair. It will be interesting to know which type scv TDIdog's tractor has.

Edit, I went back and read the post by jd110 and he is talking about the poppet valves, not the couplers. That means I'll need to step back and take another look at digging into this.

It definitely has poppet valves. Never did understand them and only worked on one or two 25 years ago, so If i have to go there, I'll have to reassess my options. But JD110 suggested the couplers themselves are a common issue, so I'll start there. I will probably throw jumper cables from the battery to the starter just in case there is an electrical issue even though this isn't a 57 Chrysler, but since the pump doesn't destroke when moving the SCV lever to full stroke, I'm sure the problem is hydraulic.

 

[TDIdog]

OK. I worked on one or two poppet valves probably 25 years ago and I remember nothing and the two guys that I know would know them have both died, so there's that.

So I need to find a manual to dig into this. And a new dial indicator. Mine are electronic and I don't trust them.

Do you by chance have a part number for that special tool if I need it?