TESLA Electric Truck?

[Fuddy1952]

Who's "we"? km and celsius is what I use, and I'm no spring chicken.

You keep predicting failure of the grid despite repeated responses that this is not going to happen overnight and it will not be every ICE in the world. To answer your question anyway though, I think you could look at the impact of the microprocessor on the power grid from 1980 to today. The introduction of personal computers, corporate datacenters, electronic appliances, personal phones and tablets, printers, games, 3-4 large tv's in every house, monitoring and surveillance systems, and uncountable other electronic items has had more impact on the power grid than the change from ICE to EV will have. The grid is still standing.

Source: Electricity Consumption - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

Omit my first sentence.
My point was easy to understand (me and most people in the USA) miles, Fahrenheit, inches, etc.
Second point... the grid I'm not concerned with 100-200 watt computers, games, tv's but 1kw to 7kw chargers. Chargers running 10-20 hours continuously!
If HALF of all vehicles were switched to electric, the current grid couldn't supply it, I guarantee.
Also, why not address my other concerns?
I know it's not happening overnight, but as it happens the demand/price of power WILL increase...it has to.
A few years ago at my home place they (AEP) wanted to install 1,000,000 volt towers across the property, close to both houses. We stopped it (for now).
All I'm saying is it's not this simple, non-polluting wonderful solution. You have to consider all aspects, ramifications and impacts it will have long term.
So far I've read great replies here from very knowledgeable people. Look deeper.

 

[jjp8182]

What firefighters need to know about electric car batteries

They have to be a bit careful where they stick jaws of life to avoid 300v+.

Other than the learning curve, there isnt massive differences between the danger of batteries & gas. Both are pretty explosive in many situations, being rather loose with the exact definition of explode. We've just had a longer time for most people getting use to handling gas as opposed to high density batteries.

To my mind the major difference is that for gasoline most of the hazards require an oxidizer, and a source of ignition to start the chemical reaction. Where as with a battery everything is already present and it's just a matter of completing the circuit in the wrong way. That's not to say batteries can't be safe just that there are intrinsically fewer things required to really screw things up - some of which the consumer has zero control over.

Reading through the link and it's copy of the Model S emergency responders' guide it's interesting to see that part of their recommendation is to just let the battery burn itself out ....and they didn't seem to mention any dangers of applying water to an active electrical circuit. Actually had a conversation on battery fires with a coworker today and with one he saw, it sure sounded like the battery (which had initially short-circuited due to water before starting to burn) was also creating hydrogen and oxygen from the water that had intruded into it's storage area, as well as some of the water being used to extinguish it.

Either way, neither is something to be all that cavalier in handling .... though many people seem to have gotten to that point with gasoline because it's been around so long.

 

[CHF4]

Omit my first sentence.
My point was easy to understand (me and most people in the USA) miles, Fahrenheit, inches, etc.
Second point... the grid I'm not concerned with 100-200 watt computers, games, tv's but 1kw to 7kw chargers. Chargers running 10-20 hours continuously!
If HALF of all vehicles were switched to electric, the current grid couldn't supply it, I guarantee.
Also, why not address my other concerns?
I know it's not happening overnight, but as it happens the demand/price of power WILL increase...it has to.
A few years ago at my home place they (AEP) wanted to install 1,000,000 volt towers across the property, close to both houses. We stopped it (for now).
All I'm saying is it's not this simple, non-polluting wonderful solution. You have to consider all aspects, ramifications and impacts it will have long term.
So far I've read great replies here from very knowledgeable people. Look deeper.

I wonder how much electricity alone has been saved from switching to efficient heat pumps and LEDs..

A standard 15 amp plug charges at 3 miles per hour. A 240 50 amp (like a dryer) takes 6.5-9 hrs to charge a completely empty vehicle. It’s not adding but so much to the grid during the night when there is a lot of excess power.

That being said, it’s going to take a while. Solar is also getting better & cheaper as well & hundreds if not thousands install it daily. (Not I, I’m waiting to either figure out the instal myself or prices to go down). A big portion right now in the USA compared to other countries is the install cost- one could argue due to the subsidies, but that’s another topic.

 

[CHF4]

To my mind the major difference is that for gasoline most of the hazards require an oxidizer, and a source of ignition to start the chemical reaction. Where as with a battery everything is already present and it's just a matter of completing the circuit in the wrong way. That's not to say batteries can't be safe just that there are intrinsically fewer things required to really screw things up - some of which the consumer has zero control over.

Reading through the link and it's copy of the Model S emergency responders' guide it's interesting to see that part of their recommendation is to just let the battery burn itself out ....and they didn't seem to mention any dangers of applying water to an active electrical circuit. Actually had a conversation on battery fires with a coworker today and with one he saw, it sure sounded like the battery (which had initially short-circuited due to water before starting to burn) was also creating hydrogen and oxygen from the water that had intruded into it's storage area, as well as some of the water being used to extinguish it.

Either way, neither is something to be all that cavalier in handling .... though many people seem to have gotten to that point with gasoline because it's been around so long.

Apparently you’re supposed to also spray tons of water on it..then ideally dunk it in water to put it all out (I saw some pics somewhere in Germany where they used a special tow truck to lift and dunk a plug in hybrid for 24 hrs). I know, I know, who has a dunk tank.. apparently some.

How many gas stations and roads were available when cars first came out? It’s all taking time and will continue. Even with these amazing new battery improvements that come out it takes supposedly 5-10 years to make them commercially viable due to supply chains and testing.

 

[aczlan]

A standard 15 amp plug charges at 3 miles per hour. A 240 50 amp (like a dryer) takes 6.5-9 hrs to charge a completely empty vehicle. It’s not adding but so much to the grid during the night when there is a lot of excess power.

To be pandatic, a 50 amp 240VAC plug is generally used for a stove or range and a 30 amp 240VAC plug is usually used for a dryer.

Aaron Z

 

[Gale Hawkins]

From my experience most often FEAR stands for False Evidence Appearing Real.

I decided many years ago if I was going to let the fear of FEAR control my life that I had already ceased to exist in a functional sense.

We all know how all developed countries failed to exist because the year 2000 software date "issue" was going to crash the computers and shut down life as we had known it.

Expect charging EV's in mass to equal the crises from the year 2000 software issue.

EV's are here and are being joined by more daily and they are not going away in our lifetime like the ICE's are starting to slip sliding away. EV's will go away someday just like Walmart will be the Sears story one day. Change in life is the only sure thing one can bank on.

When purchase prices of an EV become less than an equal featured ICE vehicle more will go with the lower price option.

At McDonald's today a guy came over to my table and set down. One of his questions was how was I liking my first all electric car? I told him I really liked its feel and comfort. He then said he plans to take a close look at EV's the next time he buys but today he has a nice car. He is 68 like myself.

The negative comments sounds more like some made by farmers when tractors first started showing up in the community. Chicken Little still has trained helpers when it comes to EV's it seems to me.

 

[California]

From my experience most often FEAR stands for False Evidence Appearing Real.

... year 2000 software date "issue" was going to crash the computers and shut down life as we had known it.

Y2K was a joke. I was working in an IT role in the years preceding, in a Large Public Agency. A consultant was hired to assess vulnerability. This was realistic, the agency billed the Feds some $millions and millions monthly for various cost sharing programs and that all ran on Cobol with the 2-digit year field limitation.

But the consultant took us good. I was asked to list wall clocks along with the 60 or so laptops and the server I was responsible for. I replied the wall clocks ran on C-cell batteries so pointless to assess vulnerability. ... I got overruled. Whatever, it all pays the same.

After a year of anxious upgrades our agency was ready well in advance for Y2K and there were no issues - as you summarized.

Y2K was a joke. "Be Very Afraid". Fear of the unknown, then ridicule, then finally acceptance of change, seems to be the model for things new and different.

 

[Jstpssng]

I'm far from a computer guru, but back then I was referring to it as the "Y2K Farce." People were afraid that the computers in their cars were going to self destruct, etc. Midnight is way past my bedtime but just for giggles I woke up and turned my GPS on so that I could watch it self destruct... it didn't. The only nefarious thing which may have happened... I had a 35 mm camera and when I got the film developed there was a picture of nothing, with the date stamp Jan 01.

 

[Grumpycat]

Too rich for my blood and I'm not convinced the batteries are "there" yet.

On what do you base your statement?

Tesla warrants the Powerwall to retain 70% of original capacity for 10 years, else you get a new one.

 

[Grumpycat]

Many people use their trucks to tow and the watt hour usage goes through the roof when towing a laden trailer .
TFL did a couple tests with a model X and was burning through a whole charge in around 100 miles.

The reserve charge for towing a substantial weight is going to take some time to overcome.

So what is the problem? I had a diesel SUV that would deliver 30 MPG at 70 MPH. But put a 4500 pound trailer behind it and it got 10 MPG (at less than 70 MPH). "Range" fell to 200 miles! Conclusion: "Diesel isn't here yet."

Model X Long Range has an EPA rated 328 mile range. Hitch a trailer and range drops to 1/3rd? You act as if that is unusual or unexpected?

 

[Grumpycat]

Here's a thought! (My brainstorm?!?!?)...
The more EVs there will be over time, everyone's electric rates will go up. It will have to at some point.

Why? The proper time to charge an EV is at night when generating capacity is surplus. So much so utilities offer discounts for using electricity at night.

I was joking about the 1950s electric bumper cars. But they worked, no battery. The floor was metal as well as ceiling, so a contact between them ran the motor. I remember the ozone smell to this day.
Trolleys and pantograph trains work by overhead wires, they're on rails so even contact.
But...there is inductive charging. There's a unit for your phone. No connection, place phone on it and it charges by induction.
So why not wire coils underneath asphalt on major highways? An EV would get charged by driving along. Talk about a long range...even for tractor trailers or towing a trailer.

Induction charging of a moving vehicle is very difficult because you have one coil moving over another coil. Ever see that before? Doesn't it sound like an electric motor? It is. Requires more force to move one coil over the other than you can couple between in energy. Plus it is a highly lossy transmission medium. Doesn't much matter for a couple watts on your phone but for 20kW to move an EV at 70 MPH it gets significant.

 

[Grumpycat]

If you built a metal ceiling over the roads here, you could solve the snow removal problam too. I loved those bumper cars. Especially if you could get enough speed to give some unsuspecting person whiplash! lol

Perhaps you forget there was also a metal floor.

 

[5030]

So what is the problem? I had a diesel SUV that would deliver 30 MPG at 70 MPH. But put a 4500 pound trailer behind it and it got 10 MPG (at less than 70 MPH). "Range" fell to 200 miles! Conclusion: "Diesel isn't here yet."

Model X Long Range has an EPA rated 328 mile range. Hitch a trailer and range drops to 1/3rd? You act as if that is unusual or unexpected?

The problem(or should I say the solution to the problem is), diesel is available about everywhere, Recharging an electric vehicle isn't. You ain't pulling into the local Speedway or *** and Go and charge up your electric vehicle or sit there for an hour waiting for it to charge back up when you can fill your diesel tank in 3 minutes and continue on.

That is, in my view, the issue today.

Until there are charging stations on every corner and the up time is reduced to minutes instead of an hour or more, plug in vehicles will never be mainstream. We live in a 'I want it now' society and charging up for an hour or more, is totally unacceptable.

 

[Grumpycat]

What is really 'impressive' is Musk's ability to secure taxpayer funding to float his boat. He's really good at it.

"Everybody" says that but nobody backs it with proof.

 

[Grumpycat]

Whatever Musk does, you can rest assured it will be bankrolled with taxpayer funding. How he rolls.

Citations please?

 

[Grumpycat]

Not sure about the charging rates but I assume that you can only drive the rate so fast and then you have an overheating issue with the battery pack.

120kW into my 85kWh Tesla Model S is only 1.4C. Your phone and laptop charge harder than that. However, Tesla wishes to protect the (~7100) 18650 cells.

I guess my issue comes from where the power originates. it's not some magical genie supplying the power to the charge station, it's fossil fueled and nuclear plants supplying the juice and they both pollute but in different ways.

People tend to discount the initial generation of the power heavily and play the 'green' dream. From that standpoint, I still prefer the infernal combustion engine. With that, I know where the related pollution originates at. With a plug in, not so much.

Tesla Model S (power hog) powered by coal is responsible for the similar emissions as a gasoline automobile which gets 30 MPG. But unlike the gasoline automobile the Tesla can effortlessly switch from coal to nuclear to hydro to solar to natural gas, or any combination thereof.

 

[Fuddy1952]

Why? The proper time to charge an EV is at night when generating capacity is surplus. So much so utilities offer discounts for using electricity at night.



Induction charging of a moving vehicle is very difficult because you have one coil moving over another coil. Ever see that before? Doesn't it sound like an electric motor? It is. Requires more force to move one coil over the other than you can couple between in energy. Plus it is a highly lossy transmission medium. Doesn't much matter for a couple watts on your phone but for 20kW to move an EV at 70 MPH it gets significant.

"Doesn't much matter for a couple watts on your phone but for 20kW to move an EV at 70 MPH it gets significant."
Thanks! You answered my question then. There are 263+million registered vehicles in the US alone. Let's say half, or less, say 100M go electric.
What's (100Mil)(20,000W)? 2T watts. That's 2,000,000,000,000 a lot of power.

 

[Grumpycat]

Electric-car batteries recharge in ten minutes when the heat is on : Research Highlights

I recently learned about this factor when charging the Nissan Leaf with the 30 kWa battery at WalMart (Electrify America). With the battery cold (60F) vs war (90F-100F) the same amount of charge cost me 2x as much cold as warm for the same amount of charge. That is using the CHAmoDE DC charger. Since the charging fee is per minute you can see how much faster a heated battery can charge vs a cold battery. Charging a cold battery can lead to plating that leads to long term battery degradation.

The biggest problem you had is that it is illegal in Kentucky to resell electric power. So EA can not bill you by the kWh, they have to bill you by the minute to rent the parking space. And while you rent the space they can give you electricity.

 

[Fuddy1952]

Those who have EVs enjoy and embrace them. Those who don't shouldn't be forced into buying one.