2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use?

/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use? #1  

Nacademus

Gold Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2018
Messages
255
Location
Rural, Ohio
Tractor
Massey Ferguson GC1720
When I operate my tractor, say, brush hogging, I lower my loader arms and tilt the bucket back to stop in order to help direct the vegetation to lay over travel under my tractor. Also, while mowing my lawn, I tilt the bucket back to stop and keep it lower and out of sight much the same way.

I notice on these occasions that my bucket will drift down about about an inch or so over a short time frame-maybe 20 minutes, sometimes less. I curl it back up to meet the stop and go on about my task. I notice it mostly because the bucket begins to flop and I can hear and feel it happening. There is obviously a delay when whatever fluid gap that's formed is taken up before the loader begins to move. This delay of movement is much more perceptible when the tractor has leaked down while sitting a storage for a week or whatever. I notice it with the loader lift arms, too. As best I can tell, the loader arms do not leak down while in use-just the loader bucket. Also, my 3PT seem to stay where I set it without issue as far as I can tell. The tiller, rotary cutter, box blade, rear blade, etc all seem to stay where I leave them when elevated, but I haven't paid very close attention. When the 3PT implement is elevated and tractor is off, you notice the audible pinging from the slow leak-down happening but I attribute this to being rather normal. The bucket drooping over such a short time has me bothered, though.

Is this kind of bucket leak down normal? Do you all experience it like this? I suppose the jittery movements that traveling across the uneven terrain imposes on the bucket could attribute to it leaking down quicker-but while running?? The bucket is empty when this happens. I never have a bucket loaded long enough to see what happens then-now I am more apprehensive to trust it so much with any kind of load for any real amount of time.

I do know that my backhoe will leak down if I don't pin it up while attached to the tractor and in storage. When stored off the tractor, the backhoe will leak all the way until it is resting on the floor unless I place a wood block under it. I guess that is expected.

Its still under warranty, I just want to know how common this is or if its acceptable before I borrow a trailer and haul it a hundred miles to my dealer. I appreciate my dealer a lot (surprisingly-good experiences so far with warranty parts service and shipping them to me quickly) - I don't want to send them on a wild goose chase.
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use? #2  
It sounds like the rams on your loader are leaking internally - and no, they should not leak that noticeably. I'm assuming you're not leaking any fluid anywhere. It could possibly be leaking by at the control rather than the rams themselves. In any case if it's a warranty issue the dealer is the appropriate choice. They should have technical manuals on hand giving acceptable leak down rates. By they way, you may be able to detach the loader and just take that to the dealer leaving the tractor at home - just a thought.
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use?
  • Thread Starter
#3  
If it's at the valve, they'll need to access it on the tractor, right? ******. I was worried that this was actual cause for concern.

Thanks for the reply.


No noticeable loss of fluid anywhere at all.
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use?
  • Thread Starter
#4  
I think tonight I'll raise the loader up, disconnect the hoses connecting loader to tractor and see if the loader drops or settles by morning. If it does, the leak down is in the loader cylinders. If not, the leak is in the tractor, control valve, connections-wherever.
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use?
  • Thread Starter
#5  
Did a short test. After using it for a couple hours I brought it into the garage and parked it. The tip of the loader bucket was set to 35-3/4". 20 minutes later, I came out to take a look and the tip of the loader bucket dropped to 33-1/4". That's a 2-1/2" drop in just twenty short minutes. Loader pins don't seem to have moved so I don't think the issue is with the lift arm circuit or cylinders. There's definitely something going on with the curl cylinders.

Another thing that I noticed, I was able to lift up the tip of the bucket by hand about 2 inches or so-just about as much as it leaked down. It'd lift a little bit and drop it back down settling to where it was.

This is pretty unacceptable, right?

Another thing I noticed when I curled the bucket all the way up while using it earlier, I could see that my right hydraulic cylinder was rattling loose in the pins while the other cylinder was good and firm and tight. As if the left cylinder bottomed out before the right cylinder somehow.
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use? #6  
Did a short test. After using it for a couple hours I brought it into the garage and parked it. The tip of the loader bucket was set to 35-3/4". 20 minutes later, I came out to take a look and the tip of the loader bucket dropped to 33-1/4". That's a 2-1/2" drop in just twenty short minutes. Loader pins don't seem to have moved so I don't think the issue is with the lift arm circuit or cylinders. There's definitely something going on with the curl cylinders.

Another thing that I noticed, I was able to lift up the tip of the bucket by hand about 2 inches or so-just about as much as it leaked down. It'd lift a little bit and drop it back down settling to where it was.

This is pretty unacceptable, right?

You may not find it acceptable. But, it's not that unusual.

My bucket drops about that fast, if the bucket has weight in it.

I always park with the bottom of the bucket flat on the floor. And, it never stays that way. The weight of the loader arms pushing on the back of the bucket, cause the front of the bucket to raise up off the floor about 3 inches. If you step on the front edge of the bucket it moves down to the floor, and pops right back up when you take your weight off it. This indicates there is a vacuum in the cylinders from where the fluid left.

Since there is no external leakage, it must be going back through the valve.

It works fine when I use it, so I am not bothered by it enough to spend $500 for a valve.
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use? #7  
My GC did it from day one if I left it up overnight, the only reason I even knew it did it was I was installing the injector pump and needed the loader up in the air for a few hours..
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use? #8  
Mine will drop like that too, has from day one, I think.
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use? #9  
I suspect that MF tractors (or maybe all these class of tractors) each individually have various degrees of normalcy. Everything drifting down, hydro whine, jerky movement...could be normal, could be not normal...you're gonna get different opinions from tractor owners, and you're also gonna get different opinions from dealership service departments (via phone, in my case).

I tend to fuss and tinker with stuff, so anything unusual in my mind gives me no peace lol. But even I am coming around to the idea that my tractor has certain idiosyncrasies that I'll just have to live with.
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use?
  • Thread Starter
#10  
I have no weight in the bucket. I left it elevated all night. I'll check the drop when I get home from work.

Can loader cylinders be out of sync or something like that? I notice that when curled to full lock in the up position, my right loader just jiggles loosely in its pins. The left cylinder seems to be the one holding it up for sure.
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use? #11  
I would say that leak down is not normal. I purchased my 2009 Kubota M6040 new. It's now ten years old. I can leave my VERY HD Rhino rear blade elevated and over the period of a week - it will not drop, even an inch. Same with the 820# Land Pride grapple on the FEL.

However - when I'm done with the tractor and back it into the carport stall - I ALWAYS lower both the grapple & rear blade completely down. Both implements rest on chunks of log - up off the ground. Purely a safety concern. I came around the corner of the carport and walked into the lower teeth of the elevated grapple. Only ONCE...........
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use? #12  
Can loader cylinders be out of sync or something like that?
It would be by pure chance that pair-mounted cylinders would be completely in sync without needle valves mounted on each port of the cylinders and adjusted to synchronize movement. And even then, to keep them exactly in step with each other, you'd have to go back and recalibrate as the seals and bearing/piston rings wear on each cylinder.
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use? #13  
When cylinders are paired hydraulically, they are both bottoming/topping out in sync as much as what they're connected to allows. Metering would only affect cyls not connected mechanically, such as dual grapple lids.

One cylinder being loose at pins means that the mount spacing may not be as precise as the length of the cyls. I suggest that if the curl cylinders were switched from side to side that the same side would be loose at the pins, not the same cyl. If not, the cyls aren't perfect twins. Twisted loader arms could produce a similar symptom. :2cents:
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use? #14  
Mine will drop down a bit. There are no check valves in the hydraulic plumbing to prevent this.

It's normal and fine.
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use?
  • Thread Starter
#15  
When cylinders are paired hydraulically, they are both bottoming/topping out in sync as much as what they're connected to allows. Metering would only affect cyls not connected mechanically, such as dual grapple lids.

One cylinder being loose at pins means that the mount spacing may not be as precise as the length of the cyls. I suggest that if the curl cylinders were switched from side to side that the same side would be loose at the pins, not the same cyl. If not, the cyls aren't perfect twins. Twisted loader arms could produce a similar symptom. :2cents:

I haven't lifted anything I feel to be too heavy or in an awkward manner. Certainly nothing has happened to a point where I would remember such an event. I don't even have 80 hours on it, yet. I always hoist from the center using my two bucket hooks to triangulate the load vector to the middle. The only thing that I can remotely recall possibly having a chance at twisting the arms is when I tried to use my Piranha Tooth Bar to pluck a very small tree out of the ground after pushing it over. Even during that, I centered the tree and never used the corner of my bucket. The loader did deadhead that time, though-but it was already flat. Who knows?
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use? #16  
It’s normal to drop a little bit but an inch every 10 minutes it pretty rapid for a almost new machine.
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use?
  • Thread Starter
#17  
It’s normal to drop a little bit but an inch every 10 minutes it pretty rapid for a almost new machine.

I AGREE!!! Tractor is too new to be behaving like this. I even made sure to center the loader ram to alleviate the chance of debris at either end causing the seal to fail. Something is definitely going on, I just wanted to know if others have this experience. Maybe its just shoddy build quality. Nowhere should a leak-down of this much in a short amount of time be within acceptable range. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure, well used machines can wear so out leak-down is expected but I've noticed this for over 40 runtime hours-and that's only when I started really paying attention to how frequently I would need to re-curl the bucket. I began force myself to consciously remember having done it while in use because I thought I was going insane.
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use? #18  
I never paid attention if the loader bucket does it, but my backhoe boom definitely drifts down at about that rate.
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use?
  • Thread Starter
#19  
I never paid attention if the loader bucket does it, but my backhoe boom definitely drifts down at about that rate.

Mine too. I accept that. Its a lot more weight and its got provisions for pinning it up. Loader, though... if ANYTHING on a hydraulic system should be stable and static, it'd be that. I would hope, anyway.
 
/ 2018 GC1720 - Does your loader leak down while tractor is in use? #20  
When cylinders are paired hydraulically, they are both bottoming/topping out in sync as much as what they're connected to allows. Metering would only affect cyls not connected mechanically, such as dual grapple lids.
You're assuming that once the hydro lines leave the valve, there are no variables to influence the stroke speed of dual-mounted cylinders, but there are. Differences in the length of hydro lines to each cylinder, one having a tighter bend radius than the other, a slight blockage in one line from a bad crimp where it attaches to the fitting, all sorts of things have an effect.

And that's just the hydraulic lines, the cylinders themselves also have their own quirks which could have an effect on how fast they stroke with same volume/rate of fluid...seals wearing down at different rates, tighter/looser bearings and pistons, again all sorts of stuff.

All of this is why sophisticated fluid power systems employ metering. Our tractors' hydro systems simply don't need to be spec'ed out to that level of sophistication. In reality, one cylinder gets there first, the other one meets up soon *enough*, and it all works out fine.

If you wanna see an example of that, next time you go to dismount your loader, play around with raising/lowering the arms after disconnecting the loader and/or measure distance loader arm to ground after it's been sitting a while.
 

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