Two story Shop on steep grade - Help me Design/Build it!!!

   / Two story Shop on steep grade - Help me Design/Build it!!! #61  
Some thoughts

Add attached garage to the house. Increases value and gets huge buy in from wife.

Convert existing garage to wood shop. If you want more space down the road, you can add to it, but at least you have something immediately.

Add detached one floor building for car repair and machine shop.

Costs should be less and you can eat the elephant one bite at a time .....spread build costs as budget permits.

Your current plan is all or nothing. It is bad enough for a marriage when a remodel goes 50% over budget....but this is all about your wants. Only you can assess how supportive your wife will be.
 
   / Two story Shop on steep grade - Help me Design/Build it!!! #62  
Here are my initial plans... again, a two story shop. Bottom floor will be a metal shop. Figuring 12ft ceiling with a concrete slab floor. Top floor will be a wood shop with a 10ft ceiling. Both levels will be accessible by vehicle and will have a 12ft by 10ft roll up door as well as a 3ft 'pedestrian' entry.

View attachment 621294

I really do like this plan, but there is no way that I would put the money into creating it if it was my money.

Every building design starts out as a square or rectangle on a flat slab, and then gets more expensive from there. Forget the roof design for now. If it's a rectangle, it's as cheap as you will ever get. Adding angles, valleys, dormers and everything that makes a roof interesting just adds to the final cost. What is killing your budget is your foundation. It's not just going to be expensive, it's going to be MASSIVE EXPENSIVE!!! If you are dead set on your location to build, and you are dead set on having two levels, then the actual height of the lower level is insignificant because all your money is going into that retaining wall.

First question is what do you plan to do with the shop. Pretend that you lived on 100 acres of flat land. What would you build and what would you do in that building? How much metal work do you do and how much time do you plan on spending doing wood working? What tools do you already have and what are the last five projects that you have done in woodworking and metal working? How much of this is something that you plan on doing in the future, but don't regularly do already? The reason I ask these questions is that I've never met a wood guy that does very much metal work, and I've never met a metal guy that likes to do wood work. Having two separate buildings dedicated to each is extravagant!!! I'll also add to this in that I've never met a gear head that did much wood work, or even all that much metal work outside of what it takes to fix a vehicle. For me, having a wood working shop is the most important thing. I can fix tractors and vehicles in there when I have to, but that's secondary work that I really don't care for. I can also do a little welding and what not with metal when I have to, but it's not what I enjoy doing, so it's also secondary. I can put my wood working tools aside when I need to do something else. That's why my shop is 24 feet wide, so I have room on either side to put stuff while doing something in the middle of my shop.

Next question relates to the building site. Do you have to have a concrete foundation? Pier and beam on massive posts would be a huge cost savings.

If you built it all on one level, what size would it have to be? Figure out what your "for real" dimensions are and not what you would like for it to be. We all have limits and there is a point where it becomes over the top for no significant reason. My next shop will be 30 or 32 feet wide. 24 feet has worked well for me, but I have a little more space where I'm going to build and I would like more space, but I honestly don't have to have it. I would never go less then 24 feet wide. Then figure out your length. I'm shooting for 48 feet on my next shop. That gives me 18 more feet then I already have right now, and I'm about full with everything that I have without really needing to buy any more tools. That's a lot of shop. How much do you really have to have and how much is just spending money with the hope that you will need the extra space in the future? There is a point where you turn into one of those episodes of American Pickers and the space just becomes a hold all for all your junk that should have been thrown away or sold decades ago. How many people with really big shops actually use all that space and how many are just massive junk storage buildings? It's a question that only you can answer, but it is also something that you have to be brutally honest with yourself in what you will do with the space and not just a vague dream of something that very likely will never happen.

and to change directions, have you considered ever option with the existing detached garage? What if it didn't exist? If you had the open space there, could you build what you want in that location? While it sucks to demolish a perfectly good building, sometimes that's the fastest, easiest, cheapest way to accomplish what you want. Don't think about what happens to everything that is in there right now, just envision what you could build in that spot and how well it would solve all your concerns. Location is ideal, you already have power there. You should be able to use the existing slab and then add on to it to make a much larger building. Parking garage in the front with a workshop in the back.

Remember, start out with a basic shell of a building that size that you want it. Then scale it bigger if you can, or make it smaller if you have to. Just be sure that you can fit and do what you want in there and not focus on all the what ifs and maybe I would like to do something in the future aspects of the building. Decide on what you HAVE TO HAVE and then go from there. Two levels means two different shops, which means lots of empty building when you can only be in one shop at a time. My guess is that one building will end up being a storage shed and the other will be the one that you actually use.
 
   / Two story Shop on steep grade - Help me Design/Build it!!!
  • Thread Starter
#63  
Eddie, great post and it has me rethinking this hard... again!

The CAD software autogenerated the roof, I have to go in and fix the defaults. I am really planning a simple 5:12 roof. With the ridge running in the long direction.

Yes, the foundation is scaring me... both the engineering and the construction cost. The biggest hurdle no doubt. Once I wrap myself around this cost and can stomach it, the rest should be relatively easy.

With regard to floor space, yeah definitely overkill (need vs. want) but I am doing this once and for last. I am looking at this structure as multi-purpose shop/storage/car garage, and also for a potential rental workspace or even living space even though I am not plumbing it to septic now.

I'm 58 and this will be my last major build. If I can hire to get the shell up, I can finish at my leisure and do a bunch myself. Even if only one floor is 'operational' it will easily suffice. As far as existing tools... I have a two car garage full, and I mean full of mainly woodworking floor tools and tool chests, that are mostly on wheels and crammed together so they are not usable without a whole bunch of jockeying, not to mention dust collection issues, material handling/storage, etc. My metal working equipment/tools (and skills) are not nearly as mature but I want to continue to grow my collection and stay active in the shop when I retire doing either wood or metal or whatever. This is what will keep me going. If I don't have a shop I will die sooner sitting around drinking wine and watching YouTube videos! I noticed that the amount of wine I drink is inversely proportional to the time I spend in my shop. Since now I get frustrated with my little shop that requires configuring every time I want to do something, I go back inside and work on how I can improve the situation!

I shared my plot plan previously, but maybe it is not evident that my existing garage footprint is constrained on three sides. It is pushed up to the set backs on two sides and the third is in the direction of the house. I could extend it towards the house maybe 10ft but that isn't much and doesn't buy me anything towards parking cars undercover. I could go up but a second story above ground for a shop is pretty much useless in my mind. So a tear down rebuild isn't going to do the trick. I can only go 'west' which means wiping out driveway and worse killing curb appeal. Basically blocking the front of the house.

This is why I like my plan of having two stories both with vehicle access. Two stories very usable with minimum footprint. I could scale it back to 24 x 30 from 25 x 40 but I am guessing my cost per sq ft will increase dramatically. 1440ft2 vs. 2000ft2. That's almost a 40% increase of floor space for likely what 20% increase in cost? I pulled that guess out of my rear.

I haven't considered post and beam construction and a single floor as I have zero experience with that kind of structure and it just seems a waste of space (volume) that isn't usable (sloped) and not secure or protected from the elements.

I could easily reduce the upper floor height from 10ft to 9ft or 8ft but with dimensional lumber, 9ft doesn't seem to make sense and 8ft is cramping.

Anyways just some rambling thoughts tonight... again appreciate the comments, shooterdon, Eddie, and you all. Keep them coming. Remember... I said this will be a long journey. Wish I didn't have a day job!
 
   / Two story Shop on steep grade - Help me Design/Build it!!! #64  
   / Two story Shop on steep grade - Help me Design/Build it!!!
  • Thread Starter
#65  
Then I would compare the pros and cons of going with two levels and all that concrete to installing piers and beams for a single level building. Here are a few links with pictures that might help show this better then I'm explaining it.

Pin on Houses on a slope

modern buildings on slopes exterior modern with timber throughout abstract outdoor wall sculptures

hillside house foundation | Hillside House in 219 | Hillside house, House foundation, Building a house
Ya know... I should look into this! Maybe one story on steel posts/beams could be the way to go if the cost is significantly less. Just feels weird. I am traditional with foundation, slab floor, and wood joists. You got me thinking outside the box! Thank you.

Of course I am not surprised, this wisdom coming from the man who designed/built the most amazing pavilion I have seen. :drink:
 
   / Two story Shop on steep grade - Help me Design/Build it!!!
  • Thread Starter
#66  
I suppose I could get by with 1000sq ft and create a dry area underneath that could be leveled and maybe create maybe 400ft of level ground for parking tractor, implements, etc. Lots of compromises. Loving the idea of a wood floor for the wood shop. Now the wood/metal shop would have an 'above' grade slab suitable for vehicle load... I suppose that works? Dang it Eddie! You halved my space... did you reduce my cost more than that?
 
   / Two story Shop on steep grade - Help me Design/Build it!!! #67  
I suppose I could get by with 1000sq ft and create a dry area underneath that could be leveled and maybe create maybe 400ft of level ground for parking tractor, implements, etc. Lots of compromises. Loving the idea of a wood floor for the wood shop. Now the wood/metal shop would have an 'above' grade slab suitable for vehicle load... I suppose that works? Dang it Eddie! You halved my space... did you reduce my cost more than that?

That might even give you a second chance to consider making it wider :wink:
 
   / Two story Shop on steep grade - Help me Design/Build it!!! #68  
My wood shop and metal shop with assembly area in between is two floors but the upstairs is an apartment.

While the layout is not the same, I am into the side of a hill and dealing with a lot of the same challenges. Some day I will finish the thread and add the pictures of the finished product but here it is.

New cottage/retirement home near L...actorbynet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278749
 
   / Two story Shop on steep grade - Help me Design/Build it!!! #69  
The reason I ask these questions is that I've never met a wood guy that does very much metal work, and I've never met a metal guy that likes to do wood work. Having two separate buildings dedicated to each is extravagant!!! I'll also add to this in that I've never met a gear head that did much wood work, or even all that much metal work outside of what it takes to fix a vehicle.

Well I sure do, so now you've "met" one... :D
 
   / Two story Shop on steep grade - Help me Design/Build it!!!
  • Thread Starter
#70  
My wood shop and metal shop with assembly area in between is two floors but the upstairs is an apartment.

While the layout is not the same, I am into the side of a hill and dealing with a lot of the same challenges. Some day I will finish the thread and add the pictures of the finished product but here it is.

New cottage/retirement home near L.../278749-new-cottage-retirement-home-near.html
Please check your link... not working for me.
 

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