Semi rural living - Fire safety & water provision best practices

[flingwing1969]

Yes, usually a residential fire sprinkler system can be supplied by a well - some jurisdictions have codes on how much water for how long must be supplied and power failure provisions might be required.

b. Check your policy - I usually add replacement value (RV) to my policies (if available) since you will otherwise only get actual cash (ACV) value of a lost item at the time of the loss. With ACV a ten year old couch will be valued at what a ten year old couch is worth if you sold it whereas with RV, you get a new couch of similar quality. Check with your agent and also check with other companies.

A normal homeowners policy contains comprehensive fire coverage. You can sometimes obtain similar coverage without the other provisions of a HO policy (liability/theft/other damage/etc) but, if you can get a full coverage HO policy, why would you not get it since the cost of the fire only coverage is often as high or higher in some high-fire-danger areas.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Depending on your budget I壇 suggest having a residential sprinkler system installed. Oasis fire protection is a company for example. As for the Knox box, get with the county fire Marshall so you can get it keyed correctly. Hopefully it値l never be used but they are very useful and would be nice if they were mandatory.

If you have a pond a dry hydrant would be useful for drafting but a turbo draft site would also be handy

Brett

^^^ This ^^^

If you have a fire, the house will be fully involved before the fire department can get there. A residential sprinkler system is the only way to save the structure. I have a similar situation and a buddy who is a fire marshal. This advice comes directly from him.

As long as the gate is light enough to not damage the engines, they will drive right through it, or alternatively through fences. A cattle guard is a better idea. Their priority will be preventing a range fire, because they know the house is already a total loss.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Speaking of wildfires, clean your gutters. In dry weather, the duff in the bottom of the gutters turns into tinder. A single ember will set it on fire, where it will set the eave of the house on fire. Standard 3-tab shingles are Class A fire resistant, so an ember landing on the roof will just go out. If it lands on tinder in the gutter, all bets are off.

 

[oosik]

If a wildfire ever does reach my house and outbuildings - I do not expect that anything would be saved. I have a five acre lake, 80 feet deep, just 100 feet from my front porch. Based upon my experience with the wildfire, five years ago - Watermelon Hill wildfire - any type of sprinkler system that could even stand a ghost of a chance to save the house and outbuildings would be totally cost prohibitive. It would not only require a large system to pump out of the lake but also a large standby power supply - we lost power during the wildfire five years ago.

 

[rustyshakelford]

If a wildfire ever does reach my house and outbuildings - I do not expect that anything would be saved. I have a five acre lake, 80 feet deep, just 100 feet from my front porch. Based upon my experience with the wildfire, five years ago - Watermelon Hill wildfire - any type of sprinkler system that could even stand a ghost of a chance to save the house and outbuildings would be totally cost prohibitive. It would not only require a large system to pump out of the lake but also a large standby power supply - we lost power during the wildfire five years ago.

Basically the residential sprinkler system is designed to try and keep the fire in check so the occupants can escape. Or buys time. That being said, they can extinguish the fire too but with the constraints of pipe size and incoming water I don’t want to oversell. I ran the numbers when we built and it would take 40 years to recoup the money, I had my head up my rear and kick myself. The cost was mearly a drop in the bucket at the time and I have no good reason for not doing it. There are companies that will install them for free, just have to buy the material for career fireman. Can’t beat that deal

Brett

 

[ericm979]

He's talking about external sprinklers, like what we have on our house. Ours were added by the builder/previous owner during construction when it was really cheap to do so. Since we have a gravity powered water system and a 10,000 gallon tank, there'll still be water pressure when the power goes out. We get a discount on the house insurance because of the sprinklers.

Most of what helps save rural homes from wildfire is vegetation management around the house and keeping flamables away from the home. (for example, that stack of fire wood next to the garage). Fixing those are things that anyone can do. The guidelines in the link I posted earlier are useful.

 

[rustyshakelford]

He's talking about external sprinklers, like what we have on our house. Ours were added by the builder/previous owner during construction when it was really cheap to do so. Since we have a gravity powered water system and a 10,000 gallon tank, there'll still be water pressure when the power goes out. We get a discount on the house insurance because of the sprinklers.

Most of what helps save rural homes from wildfire is vegetation management around the house and keeping flamables away from the home. (for example, that stack of fire wood next to the garage). Fixing those are things that anyone can do. The guidelines in the link I posted earlier are useful.

OPs location isn’t at much threat for wildfire. They are surrounded by pine plantations but if it was to burn like it did to the West 60 miles in 2011 there isn’t much that can be done unless you have a huge multi acre buffer. Typically most just clear an acre or two around the house for privacy and only clear more if they want pasture. I hate pine so we cleared everything except the hardwoods

Brett

 

[Tangoddess]

How have you been @rustyshakelford? It looks like sprinklers are something to consider. I presume the sprinklers are the indoor sprinklers like one often sees in hotel rooms?

Or are these sprinklers outside the home that spray on the home? Or both?

I presume if they are indoor sprinklers they will require a lot of breaking walls, ceiling etc?

You all have been so helpful, thank you

 

[rustyshakelford]

How have you been @rustyshakelford? It looks like sprinklers are something to consider. I presume the sprinklers are the indoor sprinklers like one often sees in hotel rooms?

Or are these sprinklers outside the home that spray on the home? Or both?

I presume if they are indoor sprinklers they will require a lot of breaking walls, ceiling etc?

You all have been so helpful, thank you

Going well. I completely missed the part about the Home being existing. If it’s a single story I believe the install would be much easier. Two story...don’t know about that.

For an existing home, quality working smoke detectors, fire drills and common sense will be the most useful. Smoke detectors have an 8-10max year life span. They are easy to replace. The number one cause of fires where we are is lightening strikes. Second to that would be kitchen fires. Having an extinguisher handy in several places of the home (kitchen, laundry, garage, etc)is good practice. If an oven fire happens, leave the door shut and kill power.

Brett

 

[ultrarunner]

Several have mentioned the importance of Insurance...

It has basically become unobtainable for love or money in parts of California...

There is one simple criteria... distance from public fire hydrant... nothing more or less when it comes to buying insurance. Type of construction, fire sprinklers, pond, draft pipe, water storage can be a factor in determining price.

It really has come down to this...

I looked at rural home 1 mile from a public school... the home was within so many yards of a fire hydrant and no problem.

Exactly one mile down the road I looked at another home... it had 20,000 gallons of water storage plus a draw pipe with diesel pump from the pond... well cleared, tile roof, fire sprinklers etc... no chance as far as ANY conventional Homeowner's Policy... simply not possible... oh... 4 miles from fire station and in the city limits.

I spoke with the owners and heard again the same as before... the ONLY insurance they were able to obtain was through Llyods of London... it was only to cover the Insurance Requirement of the Loan... 380k loan balance with 9k premium through Llyods.

They have another policy for liability, wind damage, earthquake, hail and liability that excludes FIRE.

What people are learning is your options are limited and/or expensive... you are very much on your own... even if in city limits...

The ranchers and farmers I know take defensible space and fire restive construction very seriously...

One insurance underwriter put it this way... you can have your own private Fire Station fully staffed and equipped... but, without a public hydrant within range there is nothing we can do for you regarding a new policy... the fire hydrant is becoming the litmus test... at least here in California.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/18/after-wildfires-it-gets-tougher-to-insure-a-home-in-california.html

Wildfires push Californians to high-risk insurance market | Reuters

Homeowners in high fire-risk areas are upset over soaring insurance rates

http://www.insurance.ca.gov/0400-ne...abilityandAffordabilityofWildfireCoverage.pdf

As a side note... I know ranchers that have gotten themselves into trouble simply creating a defensible space... heck, in my city it requires paying hundreds of dollars to apply for a permit with public hearings to remove a single tree... many simply will not be proactive... had a hazardous Walnut Tree in the back yard... took 6 weeks and $225 permit fee to remove and the neighborhood was placarded with Notice of Public hearing regarding my Walnut Tree.

 

[rustyshakelford]

Several have mentioned the importance of Insurance...

It has basically become unobtainable for love or money in parts of California...

There is one simple criteria... distance from public fire hydrant... nothing more or less when it comes to buying insurance. Type of construction, fire sprinklers, pond, draft pipe, water storage can be a factor in determining price.

It really has come down to this...

I looked at rural home 1 mile from a public school... the home was within so many yards of a fire hydrant and no problem.

Exactly one mile down the road I looked at another home... it had 20,000 gallons of water storage plus a draw pipe with diesel pump from the pond... well cleared, tile roof, fire sprinklers etc... no chance as far as ANY conventional Homeowner's Policy... simply not possible... oh... 4 miles from fire station and in the city limits.

I spoke with the owners and heard again the same as before... the ONLY insurance they were able to obtain was through Llyods of London... it was only to cover the Insurance Requirement of the Loan... 380k loan balance with 9k premium through Llyods.

They have another policy for liability, wind damage, earthquake, hail and liability that excludes FIRE.

What people are learning is your options are limited and/or expensive... you are very much on your own... even if in city limits...

The ranchers and farmers I know take defensible space and fire restive construction very seriously...

One insurance underwriter simple said... you could have your own private Fire Station fully staffed and equipped... without a public hydrant within range there is nothing we can do for you...

That’s such a shame they are so strict with that. A hydrant doesn’t ensure something doesn’t burn down, just that there will be plenty of water to wash the slab off with.

Brett

 

[4570Man]

Why does the fire department put out an already total loss structure that's in no danger of spreading to another structure. Cleanup would be a lot cheaper and easier if they let it burn out.

 

[ultrarunner]

Why does the fire department put out an already total loss structure that's in no danger of spreading to another structure. Cleanup would be a lot cheaper and easier if they let it burn out.

A vacant fire damaged home 1 block from work caught fire at 5 am last Monday... it was during a rain storm and the sky was a glow... homeless had broke in and started a fire to keep warm... building was plywooded.

The Fire Department put out the fire... all in all about 5 hours until the last truck left... and it was raining hard... it does seem everyone would have been served if the fire would have lasted a little longer...

 

[rustyshakelford]

Why does the fire department put out an already total loss structure that's in no danger of spreading to another structure. Cleanup would be a lot cheaper and easier if they let it burn out.

I think the thought process is starting to lean towards less aggressive interior attacks when no threat to victims. However, if you’re home was on fire 99% of people want it out to save anything they can. Sometimes preserving a picture or piece of jewelry is the only thing of value and it’s sentimental at that. With the huge increases in fire service cancer it’s only a matter of time until letting it burn is considered I think. Also, a huge pile of ash is sometimes harder to sift thru for overhaul.

Brett

 

[DrRod]

In my part of the country, the number one fear is squirrels. If they get into your house they can chew on wires and cause a fire. Not the ultimate strategy but don't neglect the squirrel factor in fire prevention.

Because our cabin stands unoccupied for weeks at a time, we shut off the power completely. This complicates managing the water system as it has to be drained in the winter and we can't have a filter/treatment system as it will freeze. But our fear of gnawing animals takes precedence.

 

[ultrarunner]

^^^We have twice had bears damage the 500 gallon propane tank... lost all propane the first time which could have been disaster... the second time the tank was turned off so no loss.

Good point about wildlife.

 

[ultrarunner]

Received my first water bill at the new place...

25 gallons per day for 59 days... water and sewer included.

I was surprised to see the 59 day total of $324 especially with 25 gallons per day use.

I dug a little deeper and my semi rural home has a fire sprinkler system... $90 of the water bill is 100% due to having a home Fire Sprinkler...

Other components are fixed charges like $80 for sewer connection...

Water at the lowest tier is priced at $4.52 per unit and a unit is $748 gallons... not including other fees/taxes.

 

[Diggin It]

I dug a little deeper and my semi rural home has a fire sprinkler system... $90 of the water bill is 100% due to having a home Fire Sprinkler...

Some kind of a flat surcharge? Or was it leaking, tested, or ... ?

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This is another one of those threads that has a different answer for every jurisdiction when it comes to response times and on scene policies and procedures. I've read too many news stories about responding departments refusing to do anything because the address was not a subscribing member. Seems to be a bigger thing in some eastern areas that have historically 'private' FDs.

One example:

The South Fulton Fire Department made national news last year after they refused to put out a house fire due to an unpaid fire subscription fee, and it appears that policy has not changed.

Homeowner Vicky Bell watched her home burn to the ground on Monday while firefighters stood behind her looking on, according to WPSD-TV.

While the city provides fire service free of charge to its residents, it requires an annual $75 fee for homeowners who live in unincorporated areas of Obion County -- which doesn't have its own fire department.

Tennessee Fire Department Watches House Burn, Again

Probably not an issue in most places, but it has happened.

 

[ultrarunner]

Some kind of a flat surcharge? Or was it leaking, tested, or ... ?

Meter Fee for Home Fire Sprinkler... making it over a $1000 annually.

 

[PILOON]

Interesting topic------

Friend has a business and as such they mandate water meters.
Last winter the city supply froze at their connection and after 2 days and many $$'s spent they gave up and installed him a permanent drip or leak as running water will not freeze.

So next his water bill will reflect their poor workmanship and that at his expense.

Local plumber reported that the city has over 100 similar freezing water main problems all using bypass permanent leakage as the solution.