OK, great. The new engines need cleaner diesel. Did they say how clean?

[Lelandwelds]

The old diesel manufacturers didnt really put much effort into specifying what was "clean diesel". That has changed with the new but they dont make it easy to find. I had to learn about beta ratings and ISO 4406 contamination codes.

Beta ratings are single pass efficiency for a given particle size. ISO grades are:

Larger than 4 micron/ larger than 7 micron/ larger than 14 micron

The targeted reductions from "typical as delivered" diesel are severe. For each of the three sizes: 2,000,000 reduced to 32,000/ 1,000,000 to 8,000 / 130,000 to 1000 particles.

The filter manufactures dont volunteer this info. The engine mfg bury their requirements unless you have a warranty claim. The filter mfg whenthey do provide info are using tests from the high sulfur diesel era that is stripped of the additive package. The additives can reduce the effectiveness of the coalescing water trap style of filter. They are really stretching the definition of "nominal" and I think some of the results are for multi pass which isnt right for fuel. The white papers I have found are from the 1980s and 1990s. They do not name the exact filters tested but their results say a filter marketed as a 10 mic "nominal" should be called a 30 mic absolute. One positive thing they found was two filters with two different rratings trapped a far higher percentage and range of sizes than they did separately.

I found Clean Diesel - Donaldson Filtration Solutions - MyCleanDiesel.com to have a lot of good information that improved my searches. Anyone have some favorite sites that touch on the above?

 

[YLee Kioti]

Good education thanks for that.
So I went here- Dirty Diesel - Clean Diesel Solutions - Donaldson
So been thinking about using a painters filter at the tractor fill neck to remove the very same brown gunk that is at the bottom of my plastic diesel containers.
Anyone have an idea to the micron size of one of those?
yeah I do plan on searching also. (for the search police) but does not hurt to ask and see if anyone has been there done that.

on edit looks like 190 micron for paint strainers.
Would like something to prefilter fuel at the filler neck.
I did try the water/filter funnel but that really sucks. When pouring a 5 gallon can by hand and trying to dribble it in ounces at a time.

 

[LouNY]

A simple solution for those filling with cans will be an automobile 12 volt electric fuel pump with some 5/16 hose for a suction and discharge lines with a simple inline filter in the discharge line.

 

[YLee Kioti]

A simple solution for those filling with cans will be an automobile 12 volt electric fuel pump with some 5/16 hose for a suction and discharge lines with a simple inline filter in the discharge line.

yup...was just window shopping on amazon.
will go to HF and build one with one of their 2 wheel dollies. Since I can't flex spine for 5 more weeks may as well plan this out.
have a good weekend.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Good education thanks for that.
So I went here- Dirty Diesel - Clean Diesel Solutions - Donaldson
So been thinking about using a painters filter at the tractor fill neck to remove the very same brown gunk that is at the bottom of my plastic diesel containers.
Anyone have an idea to the micron size of one of those?
yeah I do plan on searching also. (for the search police) but does not hurt to ask and see if anyone has been there done that.

on edit looks like 190 micron for paint strainers.
Would like something to prefilter fuel at the filler neck.
I did try the water/filter funnel but that really sucks. When pouring a 5 gallon can by hand and trying to dribble it in ounces at a time.

You might look ato these: Bag Filters / Sock Filters / Water Sock Filters / WVO Filters / Oil Filters / SVO Filters - 1, 5, 1, 25, 5, 75, 1, 2, 4, 6 Micron / Size 1, 2, or 3 Sock Filters- Utah Biodiesel Supply they're a poly felt.

The common rail engined are claiming they need 4 micron to 2 mic final filtration. Bacteria is 2 micron and smaller. I am more than a little surprised how clean they say diesel now needs to be.

The big users (fleets, mines, quarries ) are operating some impressive filter setups. They seem to be two step filtering the tank output (and each Caterpillar has two step filters). They filter each load going into the tank. They filter the expansion or make up air and dry it with desiccant, deliquescent, or some kind of supplied air. They use a portable polishing rig or pipe in a permanent one they call a "kidney pump". Some are running bypass filters or using centrifugal filters that run off pump pressure or use 120 volt to spin clean @ up to 8000 rpm.

My stuff isn't mission critical or worth millions but it is important to me. I think I can rig up something as good on a smaller scale. The 2 micron ( bacterIA size) and .25 micron ( almost virus size) mentioned is making me wonder about Chicken Little or something.

 

[3930dave]

Interesting material.

I was curious as to what Racor had to offer. At a glance, this series can get down to 4 micron:

https://ph.parker.com/us/en/fuel-filter-water-separator-turbine-series

Lowest capacity is 60gph and has interesting options (300w heater !), so probably is not a low-cost setup. Many of us would get really long filter life out of that though.....

YLee - if that is not particulate contamination on the bottom of your containers, have you tried dosing with biocide ?

Rgds, D.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Interesting material.

I was curious as to what Racor had to offer. At a glance, this series can get down to 4 micron:

https://ph.parker.com/us/en/fuel-filter-water-separator-turbine-series

Lowest capacity is 60gph and has interesting options (300w heater !), so probably is not a low-cost setup. Many of us would get really long filter life out of that though.....

YLee - if that is not particulate contamination on the bottom of your containers, have you tried dosing with biocide ?

Rgds, D.

Heaters arent as interesting where I am standing. I always thought sediment bowl and swirling filters were standard issue( as in required). Evidently they don't work as well as claimed. The Racors are darned expensive too. Messy and slow to clean, too. I am interested in the centrifuges that run off of pressure and turn 6000 rpm.

I always thought oil was the most important thing to keep clean. I was surprised to read that diesel followed by hydraulic oil have higher standards. That nasty DEF fluid needs to be filtered even cleaner than the first three.

The engine mfg say no free water in any amount is OK. Emulsified water is tolerable (?) but allows bacteria and fungi to grow. Pick the wrong fungicide and it can have extra bundled ingredients that can hurt shelf life or cause soft participates to fall out. I have decided the best approach is to use a Cim-Tek or Fill Rite filter on the transfer pump that swells shut if it is full of water and has to be replaced.

 

[3930dave]

Heaters arent as interesting where I am standing. I always thought sediment bowl and swirling filters were standard issue( as in required). Evidently they don't work as well as claimed. The Racors are darned expensive too. Messy and slow to clean, too. I am interested in the centrifuges that run off of pressure and turn 6000 rpm.

I always thought oil was the most important thing to keep clean. I was surprised to read that diesel followed by hydraulic oil have higher standards. That nasty DEF fluid needs to be filtered even cleaner than the first three.

The engine mfg say no free water in any amount is OK. Emulsified water is tolerable (?) but allows bacteria and fungi to grow. Pick the wrong fungicide and it can have extra bundled ingredients that can hurt shelf life or cause soft participates to fall out. I have decided the best approach is to use a Cim-Tek or Fill Rite filter on the transfer pump that swells shut if it is full of water and has to be replaced.

Much lower risk of gelling in TX, I'm sure. Heater option equates in my mind to a high end filter (not cheap), so expected a pricey tag.... AFAIK those Racor elements are one-time use.

This and other threads keep dissuading me from looking at new tractors, even with a lottery win....

Centrifuge is a nice way to go, but not cheap either unless maybe buying surplus or auction stock.

One of the reasons I went with Stanadyne's diesel supplements is they were designed to de-emulsify water in fuel. There is at least one other product on the market that does the same.

Rgds, D.

 

[Oldoak]

I did try the water/filter funnel but that really sucks. When pouring a 5 gallon can by hand and trying to dribble it in ounces at a time.

You are never going to find a gravity flow filter for the extremely fine filtration and flow capacity you are looking for.

 

[3930dave]

The biggest Mr Funnel is rated to flow 15gpm.

They will separate water, but not hit the low micron level OP is after.

Rgds, D.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Much lower risk of gelling in TX, I'm sure. Heater option equates in my mind to a high end filter (not cheap), so expected a pricey tag.... AFAIK those Racor elements are one-time use.

This and other threads keep dissuading me from looking at new tractors, even with a lottery win....

Centrifuge is a nice way to go, but not cheap either unless maybe buying surplus or auction stock.

One of the reasons I went with Stanadyne's diesel supplements is they were designed to de-emulsify water in fuel. There is at least one other product on the market that does the same.

Rgds, D.

It is unnaturally cold to me when water starts to freeze. I saw snow for the first time at age 15 and it was trucked in. I am lucky to not need to worry about waxes and stuff gelling in my tank.

The new engines arent as bad as I first thought. I talked to a high school buddy who is a diesel mechanic. He is big on filters and only buying fuel from certain places. He says my source is one of the best and single source is the way to go. I need to be picky on my fuel storage and keep it clean. My planned fuel polishing rig gave him a chuckle but got a thumbs up.

Now to just pay for it all . . .

 

[Redlands Okie]

Replaced the injectors in my truck recently. Kind of irritated about the cost and mileage. Mechanic quickly pointed out something I did not know. The holes in the injectors are quite a bit smaller than than the particle sizes that pass through the fuel filter. Common problem. So I now have fuel filter stoping particles smaller than the injector tips holes. Several spares on the shelf at the shop since the local auto parts house does not carry them in stock.

 

[Lelandwelds]

There are parts in the pumps with such tight clearances that the heat of your hand changes the size they mic at. Or something like that. I hear and read about a lot of irritated people. That's what started my reading adventure.

My understanding is the less than 75 hp off road has been like it is now since before 2000. I have been out of touch.

Water is supposed to be even worse than dirt. New filters started coming out three or so years ago. Instead of just pleated paper, they are a multi layer mixed media filter. They're supposed to have a thousand hours of service before swap out even in dirty conditions. Supposed to stop all particles 100% down to 4 or 2 micron depending on which engine. Down side is on a large Catapiller they cost $40 instead of $15 and it takes two kinds for fuel.

Or something like that. The adult beverages were flowing and my friend was throwing a lot out there.

 

[3930dave]

Spend only an extra $50 on filters....... seems like easy math to me

This was on my mind in this thread, but didn't mention before, as were talking about pre-filtering the fuel - for onboard filters, be really careful with flow-rate vs. micron size.

The explanation I got from a mechanic friend was that once injection pumps went to the diaphragm type, they were more susceptible to damage from input-side restriction - this is the main reason that fuel filter changes on modern diesels are relatively short, and much worse to extend than mech injected ones.

He'd seen problems created by guys who would install a low micron filter, then end up with flow-rate problems. Stretched out filter changes, or a built motor increasing fuel demand - either one can put a modern IP at risk.

Rgds, D.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Another downside is the filter swap out is every 4 to 6 months instead once a year or when it acts fuel starved.

Yes, I plan to focus on cleaning fuel as far up the chain I can. As I understand it, the "new" filters are sort of like two filters in one. The outside is a synthetic fiber with depth filtration. The inner is a paper accordion like always. I plan on cutting filters open once I buy. A similiar idea is used on big blue water filters and air cleaners.

Everything about the common rail engines is picky. I wouldn't just swap a filter because it fits. But, I am not going to scour the earth looking for a cherry twenty years old machine either. Avoiding engines I don't understand is silly when the rest of the world has been coping just fine for decades.

The mix of "sky is falling" and "just add ATF/ snake oil/magnets/biodiesel/gasoline/etc" with our own history of injector and pump replacement had me scared a bit. I am one of those "climb in a corral with big bull? No problem. Risk my wallet? I start looking for stuff sneaking up behind me."

 

[3930dave]

Had to actually call the US distributor I use..... had a discussion with them the last time I dropped by, but had forgotten the name.... Alliant Power.....

They do have a website, but am dropping this file into your thread LW - their datasheet is where they state "de-emulsification" of water in their Ultraguard product.

I don't like things (esp. expensive ones) sneaking up on me either. When I got my new-to-me 3930, I researched what was on the market at the time for additives.

Stanadyne was the one I could find back when, that deals with water this way - de-emulsification - reminds me of HS Chem class..... chemically it is coalescing the tiny water molecules into larger clumps, which can be effectively separated by traditional means.

That ^ type of performance helps my old diesel, but I view it as ultra critical in the new diesels.

You seem to be in heavy research mode LW, so I thought I'd pass this along as a way to chemically enhance water separation at all stages.

Stanadyne and Alliant are 2 that work this way; there are probably more....

View attachment Alliant_ap-ft-us-sales-flyer_en_0.pdf

Rgds, D.

 

[Lelandwelds]

"Heavy research mode". I like that. I have been wading through footnotes and reading white papers and finding obscure trade magazines. I am much less concerned than when I started this journey.

I can condense my research very simply: water in fuel is ugly. Clean your fuel and keep it clean. And then clean it again.

I have learned some related things along the way. Sediment bowl and coalescing filters do not work nearly as well because of the severe hydrocracking, surfactants, ane biofuels used today. The lab results I read showed every snake oil tested exaggerated performance. Some are not compatible and accelerate fuel breakdown into sludge.

I think I am going to focus on water elimination and forget about snake oil. I am still interested in a lubricity only additive. I am really interested in the new ish hydrophobic filters that will not let water pass and the filters that swells shut when saturated so no bad fuel passes (those have been around forever). I think the disposable oil centrifuges that sell for $20 could be adapted to a fuel polishing rig but I haven't found the housing yet.

I still can't believe today's fuel filters can filter out stuff as small as red blood cells. (The filters marketed to industrial users and trucking companies filter out 99.8% of 4 micron dirt . They call it beta 2000 performance for 4 mic. That's a 2000 to 1 reduction with a single pass.)

 

[3930dave]

I had a few characteristics I was looking for in my snake oil, besides lubrication:

Cetane boost. Nice to have in general with a high speed diesel, but esp. with what I call Winter temps.

Cold Pour Point improvement, same ^ reason.

Stabilizer - certain parts of the year, my tractor sits for extended periods.

Additional cleaning. Aside from general housekeeping (seeing coal tar black cartridges coming out out extended run diesels gave me an apprecation of what can build up), I had a concern with Biodiesel in a road-going diesel. As Bdzl content goes up, so goes it's aggressive solvent action - if you ran a diesel for a long time on B0 (typical in my region), then drove to a region and tanked up with B20 there, you could suddenly move enough deposits to possibly start loading up a filter.

I could change a fuel filter in a parking lot if I had to, but I'd sooner not eat into my travel sched that way, and I like the benefit of having things whistle-clean period.

No alcohol content.

Mechanically massaging and pre-filtering fuel is worthwhile, but it's not something you can always easily do when traveling distances. Coalescing (as I prefer to think of it) water molecules chemically has some merit and while I haven't done meaningful lab tests on Stanadyne's claim, on a risk/reward basis, that company would have been pretty foolish to claim something like that, when a chemical engineer at another company could readily disprove it.

No, I don't blindly believe any claims..... just talking risk/reward/business on that water issue.....

And I do understand that some, or all, of the above considerations hold zero meaning/interest for certain people....

Rgds, D.

 

[YLee Kioti]

You might look ato these: [url]https://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/bagfilters.php]Bag Filters / Sock Filters / Water Sock Filters / WVO Filters / Oil Filters / SVO Filters - 1, 5, 1, 25, 5, 75, 1, 2, 4, 6 Micron / Size 1, 2, or 3 Sock Filters- Utah Biodiesel Supply[/B][/url] they're a poly felt.

The common rail engined are claiming they need 4 micron to 2 mic final filtration. Bacteria is 2 micron and smaller. I am more than a little surprised how clean they say diesel now needs to be.

The big users (fleets, mines, quarries ) are operating some impressive filter setups. They seem to be two step filtering the tank output (and each Caterpillar has two step filters). They filter each load going into the tank. They filter the expansion or make up air and dry it with desiccant, deliquescent, or some kind of supplied air. They use a portable polishing rig or pipe in a permanent one they call a "kidney pump". Some are running bypass filters or using centrifugal filters that run off pump pressure or use 120 volt to spin clean @ up to 8000 rpm.

My stuff isn't mission critical or worth millions but it is important to me. I think I can rig up something as good on a smaller scale. The 2 micron ( bacterIA size) and .25 micron ( almost virus size) mentioned is making me wonder about Chicken Little or something.

I just thought I was good at using a search engine...lol......
that is an awesome find thanks for that. got it book marked now.
Sidelined for 3 more weeks by doc. cannot flex spine until sutures come out. but have time to order and prep for fall food plots. yeah!

 

[YLee Kioti]

Interesting material.

I was curious as to what Racor had to offer. At a glance, this series can get down to 4 micron:

https://ph.parker.com/us/en/fuel-filter-water-separator-turbine-series

Lowest capacity is 60gph and has interesting options (300w heater !), so probably is not a low-cost setup. Many of us would get really long filter life out of that though.....

YLee - if that is not particulate contamination on the bottom of your containers, have you tried dosing with biocide ?

Rgds, D.

Yes sir, I use a biocide along with power service as well. The bottom of my containers have what I would call small brown dirt particles. Which may well be.
I've read once in a forum never to fuel up when a tanker is servicing the in ground tanks, as it stirs up all the crud. So I do abide by that as well.


Thanks, best regards...