Flail mower vs. rotary cutter
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countrybumpkin
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Here is pages and pages on that question.
Let's talk flail mowers
Flail Mower Let's talk flail mowers
Let's talk flail mowers
Flail Mower Let's talk flail mowers
LD1
Epic Contributor
Yep, read that thread.
There are a few who are big fans of flails, but look beyond their bias and look at facts.
What, and where you want to cut are two important factors
There are a few who are big fans of flails, but look beyond their bias and look at facts.
What, and where you want to cut are two important factors
TSO
Elite Member
Exactly... I have both, both have difference uses. Coolbrze, what do you plan to mow? What machine do you intend to use?
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jeff9366
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Contract Flailing
Answer by FARMWITHJUNK 7/13/2011
I do commercial Right-Of-Way mowing as well as several large acreage tracts. We've tried high end flails on several occasions. (Owned one, demo-ed 3 others..) They do an excellent job in many conditions, but require MUCH slower ground speeds in conditions that are very typically found in my line of work. They also require MUCH more HP in what I'd describe as "adverse conditions". As an example, a tractor we routinely use to pull a 15' bat wing (rotary) struggled with an 8' flail in high weeds. Before that draws a comment on "inexperienced operators", ect, I'll say this. We had a factory rep on hand while we used the flails. They were unable to rationalize the disadvantages of the flails. There was also NO comments offered on the way we used them, leaving my with the impression our results were typical.
When I demo-ed those flails, I was high on the idea of promoting them as a way of setting my business apart from the pack. It didn't take long to realize they simply made me uncompetitive in the market I had to operate in. This isn't Utopia...It's a tough economic environment. Operating at a disadvantage is a mistake, no matter what one would LIKE to do.
Initial cost (for higher quality units) is much higher than a heavy duty rotary cutter (per foot). Routine maintenance was off the charts compared to the relatively low cost involved with a rotary cutter.
Cost to mow an acre with a rotary cutter is fairly constant in varying conditions. Cost per acre with a flail varies wildly, and tends to lean towards VERY high per acre cost in the conditions commercial mowing generally presents. That EITHER makes bids unattractive, OR results in low profit margin. I don't know about you, but I'm in business to make money. A charming sales pitch doesn't feed the bulldog.
Much is made of the "safety factor"....Too much in fact. Flails aren't 100% safe, neither is a rotary cutter. With proper precautions, BOTH can be used successfully. There is a higher incidence of accidents with rotary mowers due in fact to the HUGE disparity in numbers of flails vs rotary cutters. This is one instance where numbers (as they're used in sales propaganda) DO NOT tell the true story.
You'll get the "sales pitch" (and associated propaganda) from "someone" on here who has a vested financial interest in selling flails, but speaking strictly as someone who's used BOTH enough to understand the assets AND liabilities of each, I'm holding steady with rotary cutters. There simply is not enough margin of profit in ROW mowing these days to afford a MUCH more expensive mower. (basing on long term use and maint, initial cost, and volume of billable work performed) You'll find flails more commonly in use by municipalities, where cost vs return on investment isn't a consideration. I have no interest in promoting OR criticizing EITHER, just a financial interest in operating MY BUSINESS in the most profitable (but still safe and efficient) manner.
3 years ago, we demo-ed 2 Alamo commercial grade flails. While mowing highway right-of-ways, BOTH required repairs that would have resulted in substantial expense, while mowing a stretch of road we routinely mow with Bush Hog bat wing rotary cutters. (Due to hitting exposed rock hidden under downed weeds) Quite simply put, rotary mowers will take FAR MORE punishment, do a more than satisfactory job, and do it at a much lower operating cost. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is simply ignoring/misrepresenting the facts to promote their own agenda.
Flails do an admirable job in select conditions. If you have the luxury of picking and choosing what you mow, fine..... The conditions that caused problems for the flails I saw represent approx. 75% of my business.
In the final analysis, the difference in quality of cut was minimal, if at all, when mowing in like conditions with a flail mower vs a "bush hog". A flail will obviously leave a better "lawn" than a bush hog in "lawn" conditions, but that isn't what is being compared in this thread anyway..... And with this type of mowing , 24 hours after the fact, it's virtually impossible to distinguish which type of mower was used in rough cut conditions.
Another valid point of comparison....Size of mower....I run a fleet of 15' bat wings. To get that width of cut, the typical set-up is to run a rear mounted 3-point flail, PLUS a side mounted hydraulic driven wing flail mower. The hp required, as well as the weight of the tractor serving as a power unit is substantially more demanding for the flails. (and cost goes up as you might expect) Rotary cutters can be run at lower engines speeds than the rated pto rpms with minimal drop off in quality of cut. Flails require (according to manufacturers) full, constant pto rated rpms. We found that recommendation to be "gospel". That's a critical difference when mowing in tight confines or when dealing with vehicle traffic only inches away. It's mandatory we be able to throttle back in certain situations.
BTDT, loaded the shelled flail mowers on a truck and sent 'em back to where they came from with no regrets. I compete against several other mowing contractors for my work....NONE....NOT ONE of them use flails. They simply DO NOT pencil out against a rotary cutter under the typical contract mowing conditions MOST of us are dealing with.......
Flail mowers have their niche. Making claims that they're THE answer to every question tends to make me discount ANY claims being made in their favor.
Later FARMWITHJUNK became a little less diplomatic. 2/01/2012
EDITED FOR BREVITY
In need of implement advice for 10 acres.
If you ever have the call for mowing anything except nearly scalping turf, avoid flails like the plague. They do a pitiful job if you try to cut "long"..... They require much more power per ft in dense grass. They're useless in wet grass. And flails equipped to do rough cutting aren't worth the time of day as a finish mower (and vice versa) Not such a glowing report from a mower that will cost several times as much as a more durable, more versitile rotary cutter.
For the record, I own a commercial mowing business, which mows (literally) thousands of acres per season. I've used some of the most expensive, highest quality flails in the business. I had plans of marketing that portion of my business as "an advantage".....Gave up on that idea real quick once I found out the added cost, lower productivity, higher maintenance cost, MUCH higher initial cost, and in most cases mediocre performance would have made my business uncompetitive.
If you have endless hours of spare time on your hands, aren't interested in quality of your work, have plenty of money laying around with nothing else to do with it, plan on mowing on an intense schedule, and just LOVE spending your time S.L.O.W.L.Y. mowing what could be done better in less time with a good rotary cutter, by all means....buy a flail mower.
BUT....If money IS an object....If time IS a valuable commodity.....and being able to buy one LESS EXPENSIVE mower that does the job seems like a more intelligent solution, buy a GOOD rotary mower.
(FARMWITHJUNK liked Bush Hog brand Rotary Cutters.)
Answer by FARMWITHJUNK 7/13/2011
I do commercial Right-Of-Way mowing as well as several large acreage tracts. We've tried high end flails on several occasions. (Owned one, demo-ed 3 others..) They do an excellent job in many conditions, but require MUCH slower ground speeds in conditions that are very typically found in my line of work. They also require MUCH more HP in what I'd describe as "adverse conditions". As an example, a tractor we routinely use to pull a 15' bat wing (rotary) struggled with an 8' flail in high weeds. Before that draws a comment on "inexperienced operators", ect, I'll say this. We had a factory rep on hand while we used the flails. They were unable to rationalize the disadvantages of the flails. There was also NO comments offered on the way we used them, leaving my with the impression our results were typical.
When I demo-ed those flails, I was high on the idea of promoting them as a way of setting my business apart from the pack. It didn't take long to realize they simply made me uncompetitive in the market I had to operate in. This isn't Utopia...It's a tough economic environment. Operating at a disadvantage is a mistake, no matter what one would LIKE to do.
Initial cost (for higher quality units) is much higher than a heavy duty rotary cutter (per foot). Routine maintenance was off the charts compared to the relatively low cost involved with a rotary cutter.
Cost to mow an acre with a rotary cutter is fairly constant in varying conditions. Cost per acre with a flail varies wildly, and tends to lean towards VERY high per acre cost in the conditions commercial mowing generally presents. That EITHER makes bids unattractive, OR results in low profit margin. I don't know about you, but I'm in business to make money. A charming sales pitch doesn't feed the bulldog.
Much is made of the "safety factor"....Too much in fact. Flails aren't 100% safe, neither is a rotary cutter. With proper precautions, BOTH can be used successfully. There is a higher incidence of accidents with rotary mowers due in fact to the HUGE disparity in numbers of flails vs rotary cutters. This is one instance where numbers (as they're used in sales propaganda) DO NOT tell the true story.
You'll get the "sales pitch" (and associated propaganda) from "someone" on here who has a vested financial interest in selling flails, but speaking strictly as someone who's used BOTH enough to understand the assets AND liabilities of each, I'm holding steady with rotary cutters. There simply is not enough margin of profit in ROW mowing these days to afford a MUCH more expensive mower. (basing on long term use and maint, initial cost, and volume of billable work performed) You'll find flails more commonly in use by municipalities, where cost vs return on investment isn't a consideration. I have no interest in promoting OR criticizing EITHER, just a financial interest in operating MY BUSINESS in the most profitable (but still safe and efficient) manner.
3 years ago, we demo-ed 2 Alamo commercial grade flails. While mowing highway right-of-ways, BOTH required repairs that would have resulted in substantial expense, while mowing a stretch of road we routinely mow with Bush Hog bat wing rotary cutters. (Due to hitting exposed rock hidden under downed weeds) Quite simply put, rotary mowers will take FAR MORE punishment, do a more than satisfactory job, and do it at a much lower operating cost. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is simply ignoring/misrepresenting the facts to promote their own agenda.
Flails do an admirable job in select conditions. If you have the luxury of picking and choosing what you mow, fine..... The conditions that caused problems for the flails I saw represent approx. 75% of my business.
In the final analysis, the difference in quality of cut was minimal, if at all, when mowing in like conditions with a flail mower vs a "bush hog". A flail will obviously leave a better "lawn" than a bush hog in "lawn" conditions, but that isn't what is being compared in this thread anyway..... And with this type of mowing , 24 hours after the fact, it's virtually impossible to distinguish which type of mower was used in rough cut conditions.
Another valid point of comparison....Size of mower....I run a fleet of 15' bat wings. To get that width of cut, the typical set-up is to run a rear mounted 3-point flail, PLUS a side mounted hydraulic driven wing flail mower. The hp required, as well as the weight of the tractor serving as a power unit is substantially more demanding for the flails. (and cost goes up as you might expect) Rotary cutters can be run at lower engines speeds than the rated pto rpms with minimal drop off in quality of cut. Flails require (according to manufacturers) full, constant pto rated rpms. We found that recommendation to be "gospel". That's a critical difference when mowing in tight confines or when dealing with vehicle traffic only inches away. It's mandatory we be able to throttle back in certain situations.
BTDT, loaded the shelled flail mowers on a truck and sent 'em back to where they came from with no regrets. I compete against several other mowing contractors for my work....NONE....NOT ONE of them use flails. They simply DO NOT pencil out against a rotary cutter under the typical contract mowing conditions MOST of us are dealing with.......
Flail mowers have their niche. Making claims that they're THE answer to every question tends to make me discount ANY claims being made in their favor.
Later FARMWITHJUNK became a little less diplomatic. 2/01/2012
EDITED FOR BREVITY
In need of implement advice for 10 acres.
If you ever have the call for mowing anything except nearly scalping turf, avoid flails like the plague. They do a pitiful job if you try to cut "long"..... They require much more power per ft in dense grass. They're useless in wet grass. And flails equipped to do rough cutting aren't worth the time of day as a finish mower (and vice versa) Not such a glowing report from a mower that will cost several times as much as a more durable, more versitile rotary cutter.
For the record, I own a commercial mowing business, which mows (literally) thousands of acres per season. I've used some of the most expensive, highest quality flails in the business. I had plans of marketing that portion of my business as "an advantage".....Gave up on that idea real quick once I found out the added cost, lower productivity, higher maintenance cost, MUCH higher initial cost, and in most cases mediocre performance would have made my business uncompetitive.
If you have endless hours of spare time on your hands, aren't interested in quality of your work, have plenty of money laying around with nothing else to do with it, plan on mowing on an intense schedule, and just LOVE spending your time S.L.O.W.L.Y. mowing what could be done better in less time with a good rotary cutter, by all means....buy a flail mower.
BUT....If money IS an object....If time IS a valuable commodity.....and being able to buy one LESS EXPENSIVE mower that does the job seems like a more intelligent solution, buy a GOOD rotary mower.
(FARMWITHJUNK liked Bush Hog brand Rotary Cutters.)
Last edited:
leonz
Super Member
A flail mower is the mower of choice in close areas with pedestrians and vehicular traffic and mowing near buildings due simply to the safety of the flail mowers operation where all the clippings are contained within the flail mower shroud and any object the flail knives may encounter will let the flail mower knives bend back into the flail mower rotor and the object will remain within the flail mower shroud until the mower moves forward and the rear roller rolls over the hidden object.
It is futile and a mistake to give you a more definite answer as I/we have no idea what your mowing or whether you intend on doing commercial brush mowing and with what size mule/power frame you intend to use for the mowing.
Specifically in farms with junks case the salesman that provided him with those mowing implements was more interested in making a sale than providing him with a flail crop shredder with a minimum 2 inch cutting height that would have worked for his contract highway mowing and not created the problems he had to deal with.
There are many folding good flail crop shredders that are for sale from INO and others and they can be imported from Europe through their dealer network in the United States.
As I have said previously; farms with junk was misled by the salesman that provided those flail mowers to him. With the current mowing climate of mowing once annually in many states a folding flail shredder with a high horsepower 4 wheel drive mule OR a Mercedes Benz UNIMOG would be the preferred method to power the folding flail mower simply because it has the very wide scoop knife type of flail shredder knife that is a single cast piece and heat treated to maintain the cutting edge. it is also bolted in place on its mounting station on its large diameter flail mower rotor. The INO crop shredder also has a wave pattern of knife mounting that makes the job of shredding crops and mowing grass crops easier with less energy used.
The European Unions regulations for an implements trailer lighting system as mounted on the INO flail crop shredders and on many other folding flail mowers allows them to be towed legally at all hours and they would be ideal for all types of mowing including power line and pipeline rights of way.
It is futile and a mistake to give you a more definite answer as I/we have no idea what your mowing or whether you intend on doing commercial brush mowing and with what size mule/power frame you intend to use for the mowing.
Specifically in farms with junks case the salesman that provided him with those mowing implements was more interested in making a sale than providing him with a flail crop shredder with a minimum 2 inch cutting height that would have worked for his contract highway mowing and not created the problems he had to deal with.
There are many folding good flail crop shredders that are for sale from INO and others and they can be imported from Europe through their dealer network in the United States.
As I have said previously; farms with junk was misled by the salesman that provided those flail mowers to him. With the current mowing climate of mowing once annually in many states a folding flail shredder with a high horsepower 4 wheel drive mule OR a Mercedes Benz UNIMOG would be the preferred method to power the folding flail mower simply because it has the very wide scoop knife type of flail shredder knife that is a single cast piece and heat treated to maintain the cutting edge. it is also bolted in place on its mounting station on its large diameter flail mower rotor. The INO crop shredder also has a wave pattern of knife mounting that makes the job of shredding crops and mowing grass crops easier with less energy used.
The European Unions regulations for an implements trailer lighting system as mounted on the INO flail crop shredders and on many other folding flail mowers allows them to be towed legally at all hours and they would be ideal for all types of mowing including power line and pipeline rights of way.
Last edited:
aczlan
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Hogwash. The salesman was trying to sell him the same Alamo heavy flail system as they sell to municipalities.
In his line of work, the most important thing is that your equipment holds up to abuse. The second is that you can get parts in a hurry (ie: the next day, if not sooner) when they break.
As you might recall, in that thread you were suggesting a non-folding flail that you had to unhook from and connect to the end to tow it down the road. He said that wouldn't work as they had to fold their batwing mowers at least 3-4 times per hour to get around overpasses, guardrails and other obstacles.
Aaron Z
leonz
Super Member
Yes I remember suggesting the HINIKER Flail Shredders to him but his existing power/fleet was not not large enough in frame and horsepower size for the 15 foot Hiniker flail shredder in the 540 or 1,000 RPM gearbox rating.
I believe I also mentioned a much smaller crop shredder in combination with the larger ones would have served him well as the more difficult area to be mowed at all hours and they could be mowed with the smaller crop shredder first and the larger areas could have been mowed with the larger crop shredder at 2 inches in mowing height after the narrower more difficult areas were mowed at the 2 inch mowing height.
Municipalities are famous for forcing contractors doing mowing maintenance with unrealistic bid offerings to in the end undercut each other as the municipality limits the ability of the contractor to make a "small profit" with their minimum cost per acre or square foot and the mowing contractors under bid each other as a matter doing business for a lot of reasons.
Hourly or weekly wages and insurance costs and a catastrophic machinery failure will eat any potential profit per acre in any case as well as a lawsuit from the loss of a cutter blade being ejected from a rotary cutter would as well where the verticut method of mowing and shredding reduces that liability to a non issue as everything stays under the mowing shroud until it falls to the ground.
The only way to overcome that scenario on a larger scale is the use of the larger robotic flail mowers that can also be quipped with belly mount rotary mowers using the largest Komtek tracked robotic flail mowers with toothed caterpillar tracks with front and rear mounted flail shredders to mow steep grades and flat sections at a smaller cost per acre to the contractor allowing them to make a profit.
The INO 2 and 3 section flail shredders are an even better match to his conditions as they will also bring down fully mature corn and sunflower crops that were left for green manure crops. The INO brand of flail mowers and other representative brands are also used by municipalities in Europe for mowing flood control barriers and highway mowing using 2 ,3 and 4 mower configurations with a front mounted flail mower driven off the crankshaft of the row crop tractor.
The Mercedes Benz Unimog can be equipped with dual power take off units for front and rear mounted integral PTO powered implements.
I believe I also mentioned a much smaller crop shredder in combination with the larger ones would have served him well as the more difficult area to be mowed at all hours and they could be mowed with the smaller crop shredder first and the larger areas could have been mowed with the larger crop shredder at 2 inches in mowing height after the narrower more difficult areas were mowed at the 2 inch mowing height.
Municipalities are famous for forcing contractors doing mowing maintenance with unrealistic bid offerings to in the end undercut each other as the municipality limits the ability of the contractor to make a "small profit" with their minimum cost per acre or square foot and the mowing contractors under bid each other as a matter doing business for a lot of reasons.
Hourly or weekly wages and insurance costs and a catastrophic machinery failure will eat any potential profit per acre in any case as well as a lawsuit from the loss of a cutter blade being ejected from a rotary cutter would as well where the verticut method of mowing and shredding reduces that liability to a non issue as everything stays under the mowing shroud until it falls to the ground.
The only way to overcome that scenario on a larger scale is the use of the larger robotic flail mowers that can also be quipped with belly mount rotary mowers using the largest Komtek tracked robotic flail mowers with toothed caterpillar tracks with front and rear mounted flail shredders to mow steep grades and flat sections at a smaller cost per acre to the contractor allowing them to make a profit.
The INO 2 and 3 section flail shredders are an even better match to his conditions as they will also bring down fully mature corn and sunflower crops that were left for green manure crops. The INO brand of flail mowers and other representative brands are also used by municipalities in Europe for mowing flood control barriers and highway mowing using 2 ,3 and 4 mower configurations with a front mounted flail mower driven off the crankshaft of the row crop tractor.
The Mercedes Benz Unimog can be equipped with dual power take off units for front and rear mounted integral PTO powered implements.
aczlan
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Soooo he would be burning significantly more fuel per acre to make the extra horsepower needed to run a flail versus his current rotary cutter?
So he would need two tractors to do what he currently does with one?
The municipalities are looking out for their taxpayers wallets in reducing costs where possible.
As I recall, he said that they have never had a rock get ejected and hit a car or land in the road. He also said that the bigger issue they have had liability wise is idiots running off the road and hitting their parked mowers or tractors.
He also talked with his insurance company and his insurance company charged the same price for him to mow with rotary mowers as with flail mowers. So as far as the insurance company is concerned, the rotary mower is not any more dangerous than a flail mower.
That's all well and good, but if he were to buy one, can he get replacement parts today or tomorrow if something breaks?
If just the tractor breaks, can he get a loaner tractor from the dealer to swap the mowers over to?
From what I recall, he had looked over it pretty thoroughly trying to provide a way to differentiate himself from his competition without pricing himself out of the market, but he couldn't make it work.
Aaron Z
leonz
Super Member
===================================================================================
The Ino has and Hiniker have,
Comer high horsepower gearboxes the last time I checked, all roller bearings are metric, All V belts are metric first, hydraulic cylinders come in SAE common sizes, Ag tires are common sizes, The scoop knives for an INO flail shredder are a common size and type.
The Komtek folks have representation here in the United States so parts are available and a flail mower using hardened knives can be mounted on both three point hitches of the largest unit to allow fast mowing in forward and reverse or to mow at a higher height and then the 2 inch height of the final cut.
A stocking distributor of these machines would have a complete inventory of these parts.
It all comes down to the low bidder and having a strong machine of high horsepower in the beginning pays dividends in the end.
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I have and use both rotary cutter and flail mower. I have never really used flail for anything but boom mower, other than mowed yard once. Did not like it for that. Have used rotary cutter on ditch bank mower and for that or boom mower to me the flail cutter is better option, unless you are really running heavy tractor. With my boom mower with flail cutter head on it can cut rather large limbs and trees (say 6 inches maybe little more unless oak then about 4 inches is about it) that would be difficult with rotary mower. Have never run bat wing mower but for my use have not notice hp need for the flail being higher than rotary mower. Do know of broken rotary blades "flying" over a house. No doubt broken flail mower cutter is also dangerous but the ones I have had and used not near as heavy as a rotary cutter blade.
