The perfect tractor.

[claywesttech]

Hi. Im an entreprenuer, inventor, and think tank member. Myself and a parter of mine at work have collaborated on a few ideas and were both recently discussing the idea of prototyping a bulletproof hobby farm tractor. I/E a tractor like those of old that will run forever with easy maintenance and the owner can perform all major maintenance with shops that exist in every garage.

We dont want to reinvent the wheel and decades of innovation and evolution of the family farm tractor.

We would simply like to build a 35-60hp tractor that takes the best assets of the past and merge them into one machine that would essentially be a one time purchase 100 year life expectancy tractor.

If the prototype is successful we would like to start a small business.

Right now we are in the research phase to establish a need and a market for such a machine.

So how can you help make our research make it to the design stage?


Below, please answer the 7 questions as simply as possible for our prelimary research.

Remember 60 hp and below, the more hours and years on your equipment the better we will be able to design.

1. What tractor that you have experience with is considered the most reliable after the most years of service or hard use?


2.What functions on your tractor have been broken the longest?

3.What are the most annoying/dangerous and uncomfortable thing about your machine?

4. What maintenance have you performed that was more difficult, came too often, was unusually expensive, or too time consuming to be considered practical?

5. If your tractor were to be found in a field 100 years from now, what things would still be functional?

6. What in your personal opinion is the most RELIABLE gas or diesel engine ever to be found on a 30-60 hp tractor?

7. Finally. What machines of the past do you consider the most bulletproof and easiest to maintain for someone whom hasnt been formally trained as a mechanic?

 

[M5farms]

while the idea is seems to be great idea the biggest problem with the tractor industry is regulations set forth by the tree huggers . How could a startup make a tractor to bypass today's requirements and still be affordable. There are plenty of tractors still working today that are 40 and 50yrs old. the market for these units has greatly increased because of emissions and serviceability that they sell used much higher than they did new .

 

[BrokenTrack]

My perfect tractor would start by having steel tracks, but then again I have an out of control track fetish. That would be coupled to a diesel engine with enough HP to do all of the following. Behind that a hydraulic reverser, coupled to an automatic, then standard transmission, to get the best of both worlds, but with quick forward and reverse shifting. The tractor would have a 540 and 1000 PTO, 2 sets of remotes, and plenty of hydraulic power to back it up. It would be a full cab, radio that only played Classic Rock Music (no country allowed), and of course heat/AC and suspension seat (remember this thing has tracks). The tracks themselves would be oscillating helping with the ride, but the seat would also be needed. The front end would be fitted with a loader and a 7 in 1 bucket (sorry, you would have to buy the patent off me for that one, as I just invented it). Obviously it would also have a 3 point hitch, probably category #2 only because a dozer can pull quite a bit more with its traction.

That would just be a start, but I am sure if I think more about this, I'll add some stuff.

You and your friend are indeed right however, there is not a perfect tractor currently made.

 

[fried1765]

Hi. Im an entreprenuer, inventor, and think tank member. Myself and a parter of mine at work have collaborated on a few ideas and were both recently discussing the idea of prototyping a bulletproof hobby farm tractor. I/E a tractor like those of old that will run forever with easy maintenance and the owner can perform all major maintenance with shops that exist in every garage.

We dont want to reinvent the wheel and decades of innovation and evolution of the family farm tractor.

We would simply like to build a 35-60hp tractor that takes the best assets of the past and merge them into one machine that would essentially be a one time purchase 100 year life expectancy tractor.

If the prototype is successful we would like to start a small business.

Right now we are in the research phase to establish a need and a market for such a machine.

So how can you help make our research make it to the design stage?


Below, please answer the 7 questions as simply as possible for our prelimary research.

Remember 60 hp and below, the more hours and years on your equipment the better we will be able to design.

1. What tractor that you have experience with is considered the most reliable after the most years of service or hard use?


2.What functions on your tractor have been broken the longest?

3.What are the most annoying/dangerous and uncomfortable thing about your machine?

4. What maintenance have you performed that was more difficult, came too often, was unusually expensive, or too time consuming to be considered practical?

5. If your tractor were to be found in a field 100 years from now, what things would still be functional?

6. What in your personal opinion is the most RELIABLE gas or diesel engine ever to be found on a 30-60 hp tractor?

7. Finally. What machines of the past do you consider the most bulletproof and easiest to maintain for someone whom hasnt been formally trained as a mechanic?

Unfortunately, I highly doubt that you can do it, and sell it, in the USA.

I want a 35-60 HP diesel tractor that has no electronics, and requires no anti-pollution gadgetry.

The above two reasons are why I have bought and refurbished my old tractors.
What I want, cannot be sold new in the USA.

 

[flingwing1969]

You have high ambitions. The problem is that tractors serve a great many purposes and it is likely impossible to serve the needs of everyone with a single tractor. Keeping it to the hobby farm arena is closer to being able to sell a multi-purpose tractor than many. I like your HP range, but others might argue you need to hit the 20 hp market and some might think 60 is a bit high and keep it to around 40.

A lot of tractor owners own attachments and they need them to work with their new tractor as well as they did with their old one so keeping the basics in line is important - same TPH arrangement, commonly available PTO shaft fitting, most common skid steer quick attach FEL - leaving the JD crowd to sell their FEL stuff with their tractor when they buy your "perfect tractor".

1. What tractor that you have experience with is considered the most reliable after the most years of service or hard use?
My Kubota B21 TLB gave me 20 years of service with only fluid changes and two bad belts. You can't ask for much better than that.

2.What functions on your tractor have been broken the longest?
I have had a constant leak from my backhoe's hydraulic valve for four years now, nothing seems to fix it. That's not really broken, is it, but then I've never had a tractor "broken" for more than a couple of days - to replace an alternator.


3.What are the most annoying/dangerous and uncomfortable thing about your machine? I don't like the vibrations a 3 cylinder diesel tends to provide, a very comfortable seat is important, having rear mounted implements and no rearview/sideview mirrors requires regular turning one's head - a rearview camera would be nice, no standard FOPS with a sunscreen on most tractors is something I don't like - others on the wide open prairie might not find it as important. Dangerous? Only the front teeter-totter axle is a bit of a danger, especially when negotiating slopes.

4. What maintenance have you performed that was more difficult, came too often, was unusually expensive, or too time consuming to be considered practical? Filter replacement is always a major expense. It would be nice to have a very easily cleaned radiator screen would be a good thing. Otherwise, everything routine is pretty easy to do and protecting the machine is pretty straight forward.

5. If your tractor were to be found in a field 100 years from now, what things would still be functional?
With proper maintenance and parts availability, there is no reason that everything on the tractor should not be fully functional 100 years from now.

6. What in your personal opinion is the most RELIABLE gas or diesel engine ever to be found on a 30-60 hp tractor? Kubota, Yanmar, Mitsubishi - probably in that order. Although, each has had a clunker or two in their day.

7. Finally. What machines of the past do you consider the most bulletproof and easiest to maintain for someone whom hasnt been formally trained as a mechanic? That depends on what you mean by past, there is no comparison between any 50 year old tractor and most of those one can buy today, our tractors require less maintenance - period! I've had old tractors and they were fussy, had dozens of grease fittings that yelled for service, sometimes had babbitt bearings, had no power steering, had limited hydraulics, poor filters, and were simply not park and forget machines. My JD Model H would (almost) always start on first turn of the flywheel (no electric starter), even when very cold, but it did demand a lot of attention.

 

[claywesttech]

while the idea is seems to be great idea the biggest problem with the tractor industry is regulations set forth by the tree huggers . How could a startup make a tractor to bypass today's requirements and still be affordable. There are plenty of tractors still working today that are 40 and 50yrs old. the market for these units has greatly increased because of emissions and serviceability that they sell used much higher than they did new .

From what we have learned so far... There are alternative ways to reach diesel emmisions standards. Most of the companies today have a much higher mark up than you think. Money is made on the front end of the msrp that is not easily seen without accounting spreadsheets from coorporate.

Our 100 year tractor, (the plan) should be affordable at similar cost to consumer... Due to longer 0 % interest financing. If the tractor is still in excellent running shape...there should be no reason that the tractor should not be able to be put on a 10 or 12 year loan. In 12 years it should still be valued close to the original cost.

 

[claywesttech]

My perfect tractor would start by having steel tracks, but then again I have an out of control track fetish. That would be coupled to a diesel engine with enough HP to do all of the following. Behind that a hydraulic reverser, coupled to an automatic, then standard transmission, to get the best of both worlds, but with quick forward and reverse shifting. The tractor would have a 540 and 1000 PTO, 2 sets of remotes, and plenty of hydraulic power to back it up. It would be a full cab, radio that only played Classic Rock Music (no country allowed), and of course heat/AC and suspension seat (remember this thing has tracks). The tracks themselves would be oscillating helping with the ride, but the seat would also be needed. The front end would be fitted with a loader and a 7 in 1 bucket (sorry, you would have to buy the patent off me for that one, as I just invented it). Obviously it would also have a 3 point hitch, probably category #2 only because a dozer can pull quite a bit more with its traction.

That would just be a start, but I am sure if I think more about this, I'll add some stuff.

You and your friend are indeed right however, there is not a perfect tractor currently made.

We are exploring tracks, however many farmers will find them cumbersome to bushhog with, and drive up and down the asphalt. The idea isnt to have every capability possible, the idea is to build the most reliable machine on the market for a 100 acre farm.

Tracks can be less cumbersome if tied to a bogie suspension. And make a caddilac ride. However we are doing a reliability and ease of maintenance study for the moment.

 

[claywesttech]

Unfortunately, I highly doubt that you can do it, and sell it, in the USA.

I want a 35-60 HP diesel tractor that has no electronics, and requires no anti-pollution gadgetry.

The above two reasons are why I have bought and refurbished my old tractors.
What I want, cannot be sold new in the USA.

We are particularly focusing on all mechanical fuel injectors. Mechanical fuel pump. Stainless housed mechanical guages. Its very difficult to get away from a starting battery and alternator, but it can and has been done before. All factory wiring will be marine grade in stailess tube conduit.

 

[claywesttech]

You have high ambitions. The problem is that tractors serve a great many purposes and it is likely impossible to serve the needs of everyone with a single tractor. Keeping it to the hobby farm arena is closer to being able to sell a multi-purpose tractor than many. I like your HP range, but others might argue you need to hit the 20 hp market and some might think 60 is a bit high and keep it to around 40.

A lot of tractor owners own attachments and they need them to work with their new tractor as well as they did with their old one so keeping the basics in line is important - same TPH arrangement, commonly available PTO shaft fitting, most common skid steer quick attach FEL - leaving the JD crowd to sell their FEL stuff with their tractor when they buy your "perfect tractor".

1. What tractor that you have experience with is considered the most reliable after the most years of service or hard use?
My Kubota B21 TLB gave me 20 years of service with only fluid changes and two bad belts. You can't ask for much better than that.

2.What functions on your tractor have been broken the longest?
I have had a constant leak from my backhoe's hydraulic valve for four years now, nothing seems to fix it. That's not really broken, is it, but then I've never had a tractor "broken" for more than a couple of days - to replace an alternator.


3.What are the most annoying/dangerous and uncomfortable thing about your machine? I don't like the vibrations a 3 cylinder diesel tends to provide, a very comfortable seat is important, having rear mounted implements and no rearview/sideview mirrors requires regular turning one's head - a rearview camera would be nice, no standard FOPS with a sunscreen on most tractors is something I don't like - others on the wide open prairie might not find it as important. Dangerous? Only the front teeter-totter axle is a bit of a danger, especially when negotiating slopes.

4. What maintenance have you performed that was more difficult, came too often, was unusually expensive, or too time consuming to be considered practical? Filter replacement is always a major expense. It would be nice to have a very easily cleaned radiator screen would be a good thing. Otherwise, everything routine is pretty easy to do and protecting the machine is pretty straight forward.

5. If your tractor were to be found in a field 100 years from now, what things would still be functional?
With proper maintenance and parts availability, there is no reason that everything on the tractor should not be fully functional 100 years from now.

6. What in your personal opinion is the most RELIABLE gas or diesel engine ever to be found on a 30-60 hp tractor? Kubota, Yanmar, Mitsubishi - probably in that order. Although, each has had a clunker or two in their day.

7. Finally. What machines of the past do you consider the most bulletproof and easiest to maintain for someone whom hasnt been formally trained as a mechanic? That depends on what you mean by past, there is no comparison between any 50 year old tractor and most of those one can buy today, our tractors require less maintenance - period! I've had old tractors and they were fussy, had dozens of grease fittings that yelled for service, sometimes had babbitt bearings, had no power steering, had limited hydraulics, poor filters, and were simply not park and forget machines. My JD Model H would (almost) always start on first turn of the flywheel (no electric starter), even when very cold, but it did demand a lot of attention.

Thank you for taking the time to fully answer our questions. We are exploring a mechanical centrifugal filter for hydraulic and motor oil. Idealy a small cartridge filter that has to be changed on a much less frequent basis ( picking up the microscopic stuff), paired with a centrifugal filter that requires an hr related cannister dump into the waste oil drum(picking up all the big stuff)

We dont intend to build a tractor that meets everyones needs. Just one that is so reliable that it is seen as a long term investment closer in asset terms to a house than a car. Overengineered to last, maintained at home. Everything complex will be modular, and easy to swap. Everything simple will be durable and made to last, or be inexpensive and take 5 minutes to replace.

 

[4570Man]

My vote is is a hybrid between a tehelandler, skid steer, and a regular tractor. The enclosed operator platforms on a skid steer and the tehelandler are safer, but I like the visibility offered on a tractor. So my imaginary tractor would have big wheels ( yes I know they're no good for maximum stability or loader geometry) a super tough loader that can take maximum abuse, good belly pan armor, good lights, good hydraulic flow and either articulated or steered because skid steers tear up too much for my liking. And design the thing right for loader work. Despite the fact that they suck I wouldn't be quick to abandon the 3 point hitch because of the amount of implements for them.

 

[aczlan]

My vote is is a hybrid between a tehelandler, skid steer, and a regular tractor. The enclosed operator platforms on a skid steer and the tehelandler are safer, but I like the visibility offered on a tractor. So my imaginary tractor would have big wheels ( yes I know they're no good for maximum stability or loader geometry) a super tough loader that can take maximum abuse, good belly pan armor, good lights, good hydraulic flow and either articulated or steered because skid steers tear up too much for my liking. And design the thing right for loader work. Despite the fact that they suck I wouldn't be quick to abandon the 3 point hitch because of the amount of implements for them.

So something like a Toolcat but with bigger wheels?

Aaron Z

 

[claywesttech]

So something like a Toolcat but with bigger wheels?

Aaron Z

I believe he is describing a log skidder with a 3pt hitch and pto. Which would fit the bill for rugged and capable. But our first and foremost objective is reliability and ease of maintenance.

We are considering a unique suspension similar to "rocker bogie" if we were to go with more than 4 wheels, all of the same size. Independently hydraulic driven. The added cost of the suspension would be offset by more traction with smaller less expensive tires, and give us six wheel drive to boot. Also long term, it would have far less shock and jarring to the deivetrain. And more comfort for the operator.

 

[bcp]

An agricultural version of a mini-wheel loader.

https://www.kubotausa.com/products/construction/wheel-loaders/r530

Bruce

 

[4570Man]

So something like a Toolcat but with bigger wheels?

Aaron Z

That would be a start, but I'm pretty sure they have 4 wheel independent suspension and substandard belly armor.

 

[fried1765]

We are particularly focusing on all mechanical fuel injectors. Mechanical fuel pump. Stainless housed mechanical guages. Its very difficult to get away from a starting battery and alternator, but it can and has been done before. All factory wiring will be marine grade in stailess tube conduit.

I have absolutely no problem with a starting battery, and alternator (simple electric system).

 

[dragoneggs]

I don't have enough experience (especially in the size/weight) range you are proposing... to properly respond to each of your questions in detail but a few of my thoughts...

1. Extra emphasis on keeping the CG low as possible
2. I am a fan of Japanese small engines, both gas and diesel
3. Toughened (fiber reinforced) thermoplastic parts instead of the neat plastics used now that easily shatter
4. Use of lower ferrous (stainless) steels to minimize rust
5. Like the idea of some kind of a hybrid as 4570Man suggested

Good luck! Personally I think I would explore something where you are not competing with the big boys, Deere, Kubota, New Holland, etc. Need to find your niche!

 

[4570Man]

I don't have enough experience (especially in the size/weight) range you are proposing... to properly respond to each of your questions in detail but a few of my thoughts...

1. Extra emphasis on keeping the CG low as possible
2. I am a fan of Japanese small engines, both gas and diesel
3. Toughened (fiber reinforced) thermoplastic parts instead of the neat plastics used now that easily shatter
4. Use of lower ferrous (stainless) steels to minimize rust
5. Like the idea of some kind of a hybrid as 4570Man suggested

Good luck! Personally I think I would explore something where you are not competing with the big boys, Deere, Kubota, New Holland, etc. Need to find your niche!

Low center of gravity and big tires would be nice. Some machines like crop sprayers build the ground clearance much higher than the center of the wheels. Maybe the same concept in reverse. The reason I'm a fan of big wheels is they work a lot better for traveling over soft ground. I think using stainless for rust prevention is far too expensive. And using a gas engine would cut the cost by thousands which would make this machine more likely to be a success.

 

[bcp]

Build an "assembled" tractor with as few custom parts as possible. It's nice to buy or order lights, belts, fittings, engine parts, etc. at any auto parts store.

Bruce

 

[dragoneggs]

Low center of gravity and big tires would be nice. Some machines like crop sprayers build the ground clearance much higher than the center of the wheels. Maybe the same concept in reverse. The reason I'm a fan of big wheels is they work a lot better for traveling over soft ground. I think using stainless for rust prevention is far too expensive. And using a gas engine would cut the cost by thousands which would make this machine more likely to be a success.

Oh I agree on all accounts! This two lifetime tractor is gonna be expensive! I think I only live once and if not, I doubt I would be able to reclaim my old tractor anyways!

But if someone wants to pay for the be all, end all tractor, then thats what I would do. Definitely not suggesting a gas engine though... just like Japanese small engines.

 

[4570Man]

I think this tractor has to be competitively priced. I could be wrong but I think the two guy show tractor company is already going to be a hard sale. I don't think anyone is going to pay more than what a a big company tractor is. Look at power trac. They're priced pretty cheap and if it wasn't for this forum I wouldn't even know they existed. And I'm not throwing rocks at this guys idea because I like it.