Save $$$ - Heat with Wood

[DMax82]

While I disagree with LD1 on a couple of points regarding taxes on the sale of wood and the ease of selling wood, it is quite a stretch to say that he has a vendetta against burning wood. He has readily acknowledged the many benefits of burning wood for some people and I don't feel like he is trying to stop people from burning it. This thread really illustrates how different peoples' needs are met differently. What works for one might not work for another. For example:

1) It doesn't matter if I could sell wood for $500 a truckload and buy another heat source for $20 per year. The wife likes wood so we will be burning wood until it's time to burn me!

2) For the next couple of years my wood source will be trees that have fallen/need to be taken down on my property. In other words work I need to do anyways.

3) Most of said trees are really crappy. I don't even know the species, but they aren't good hardwoods that people are willing to pay money for.

4) I have no idea how I would sell the wood. Craigslist? Sitting on the side of the road? Lots of old guys doing that in certain parts of Nashville. Maybe they don't have anything better to do with their time. I do.

5) My only wood cutting expenses besides the negligible costs of fuel/chains and other disposables are my saw and trailer - both of which are already written off. So I would have to pay taxes on the income earned.

So for ME the idea of selling wood to buy another heat source isn't really feasible. But I am also burning wood for other reasons (exercise, enjoyment of the work, quality of the heat, hopefully increased ****** favors from the wife) than "saving money".

 

[ovrszd]

I still say, if you have the choice, weather proof your house. Then it doesn't matter what you use for heat.

 

[Deere Dude]

Point made. I grasped your concept a long time ago ( didn't say I completely agreed). How many people are going to only split wood to sale vs how many people burn wood.

So far I can get nice oak from a friend I met. Years worth for free. If I told him I was going to get his wood and try to sell it I think he would tell me to hit the road.

I moved from WI to TN just after I cut and split 30 cords of oak and hickory. I had no choice but to sell it fast but I would never cut it to sell, it's to hard of work.

 

[LD1]

While I disagree with LD1 on a couple of points regarding taxes on the sale of wood and the ease of selling wood, it is quite a stretch to say that he has a vendetta against burning wood. He has readily acknowledged the many benefits of burning wood for some people and I don't feel like he is trying to stop people from burning it.

Thank you. At least some people actually read what I write. Having an intelligent discussion is one thing. Ridiculous and meaningless comments and jabs at each other....stupid waste of time.

So for ME the idea of selling wood to buy another heat source isn't really feasible.

Agreed.

There are many many people that burn wood. If you live in a woods, and what you burn is just junk that really cannot be sold...then what I am saying doesn't apply. Obviously. But may people are burning good wood. That's the wood that has value.

What I find funny....

Is on one hand, everyone is saying that they enjoy cutting wood, good exercise, gotta do it anyway to clean up trees that have fallen, etc....
Then when possibly selling wood is mentioned.....oh no way, too much work and time and effort involved.:laughing:

 

[s219]

If you don't understand how the heat works, you probably don't understand correctly how the cooling works.

Its not as simple as circulating ground water through it and using that cool water to cool the house, if that's what you were thinking.

There is refrigerant just the same as an air to air heat pump, or your fridge and freezer.

Operates off the same principal.

But rather than use a variable outdoor air temp for the medium to heat/cool the refrigerant.....it uses ground water.

So basically....when heating.....your compressor compresses freon.....which makes it get hot.....let's say 150 degrees but it started out at 50. So it gained 100 degrees by compressing it.

Now we circulate that through the furnace and blow air over it, this air is warmed and heats your house. Cooks the freon down to say 100 degrees. But remember it's still compressed.

So when we uncompress we have to loose that 100 degrees. So now the freon in zero.

Up to this point, a convention air to air, and Geo are the same.

On a Geo, from this point, we use 50 degree ground water to warm the freon back up to 50, and start all over. This cools the water... Which circulates back through thousands of feet of pipe in the ground, to warm it back up.

On an air to air....that 0 degree freon circulates through the outdoor unit, and blows outside air across it to warm that zero degree freon back to whatever the outside temp is. Which is why the colder it is outside, the less efficient an air to air is. Where as Geo efficiency remains as constant as the ground temp is at the 6' depth the loops are burried.

Air conditioning is just the opposite. Compressor still compresses and heats freon. But is either cooled by the outside air on an air to air, or cooled by the ground water first. Then when uncompressed and super cooled, it's circulated through the heat exchanger that the fan blows across, blowing cold air out your vents

There are a couple key aspects to add -- first is that a reversing valve is used to change the direction of the system between heating and cooling cycles. The reversing valve is an important feature. Here's a schematic of my geo system that shows the whole concept pretty well:



Note that the direction of flow from the compressor differs in heating and cooling mode. The other key component is the expansion valve, which cools off the refrigerant (compression heats it, expansion cools it).

In the abstract, the way to think about both the heating cooling cycles is that the refrigerant and machinery is a way to transport thermal energy (aka "heat") from one place (inside the house) to the other place (ground loop). In heating mode, we are actually removing "cold" heat energy from inside the home and rejecting it to the ground loop. So you actually end up cooling the ground loop when the system is in heat mode. In cooling mode, we are removing "warm" heat energy from the home and rejecting it to the ground loop. So you warm the ground loop in cooling mode.

 

[4570Man]

Is on one hand, everyone is saying that they enjoy cutting wood, good exercise, gotta do it anyway to clean up trees that have fallen, etc....
Then when possibly selling wood is mentioned.....oh no way, too much work and time and effort involved.:laughing:

I'm one of the few that actually do sell wood, but I do many other projects for myself that I wouldn't do for someone else at the same price I 'saved'. On most of the projects I undertake the money I saved equates to less than I make at my actual job in the same amount of time. The point of doing them sometimes boils down to me being cheap. It's usually because I enjoy the challenge and problem solving. I've nearly quit selling my wood works because I found it more enjoyable to just give it away or keep it. Sometimes I'll take a custom job though.

 

[4570Man]

On a side note I find it difficult to come out ahead selling firewood without an pre-existing deal. Example, clearing land that needed to be cleared. Even better clearing land for pay. One of my deals is getting paid to haul off wood for a tree guy.

 

[square1]

What I find funny....

Is on one hand, everyone is saying that they enjoy cutting wood, good exercise, gotta do it anyway to clean up trees that have fallen, etc....
Then when possibly selling wood is mentioned.....oh no way, too much work and time and effort involved.:laughing:

If I sold firewood for the money, I wouldn't sell firewood

 

[LD1]

On a side note I find it difficult to come out ahead selling firewood

Yes.

Looking at it strictly.from a business sense, cutting wood is a tough way to make a buck.

Think about the time, expense, effort, and equipment needed to cut 30 cord a year.

Then step back and realize that it's only worth $4500 or so ....it does make one question the sanity of those that cut to sell.

But more benefits than just monetary.

Cleaning up the trails in the woods we deer hunt and collect maple sap, clearing up old fence rows to make a place look better or more farmable. Doing something enjoyable (to some). Good exercise. Seat time, etc.

Just something to do in my spare time, and hey I can make a few bucks too. Certainly ain't gonna get rich are it. But it's better than doing nothing.

 

[Rustyiron]

We are considering a new house. Wanting to compare all heat sources. I think the primary concern should be a well insulated structure. Then het/AC type isn't quite as important.

This Richard, is the proper priority to follow. :thumbsup:
Fwiw, I built new, hydronic radiant was my desired heat distribution method (because of the big shop) with an efficient wood gassification boiler as the primary heat source & oil for a backup. We've since added ductless mini splits for ac and the "shoulder seasons". All of this after stuffing 3" (min) of foam in the walls and detailed attention paid to air infiltration through out the whole building. This is my first radiant "experience" and it really if the most comfortable heat, and the only way to go in a garage or shop. Opening a 12' x 14' door for 5 minutes @ 20* outside is *irrelevant to radiant heat.

* (ok, after 5 min. cosed)

 

[ultrarunner]

If I sold firewood for the money, I wouldn't sell firewood
View attachment 530261View attachment 530262

This is where local conditions have impact...

Cost of electricity here can be over 30 cents per kWh depending on tier... then downed trees must often be removed under order of the fire suppression district and the transfer stations charge for disposal...

We had a local tree service that would dump rounds outside his business Free for the taking... just about always gone by morning... officials put a stop to that as it "Encouraged" wood burning...

About the only way to dispose of wood without paying is to chip... and this is for all size wood... many of the older chippers do not meet the Diesel Emission standard and those that are not re-powered and approved can't be used.

So many ways to look at it.

If you are able one other option is the co-generation plant that accepts clean wood to produce electricity... but not an option if your are too far away...

Even having a Yule Log on the fire has been prohibited just about every Christmas due to Burn Bans...

Business has been good for Chippers and Chipper manufacturers with compliant engines.

 

[4570Man]

If I sold firewood for the money, I wouldn't sell firewood
View attachment 530261View attachment 530262

I don't know where they got that chart but it doesn't accurately reflect local prices.

 

[4570Man]

I don't know where they got that chart but it doesn't accurately reflect local prices.

Just pulling some google numbers I get $10 per million BTUs in pellets ( $3.20 a bag on rural kings website and claimed 8,250 btus a pound). I got firewood to be $6.50 a million btus. ( $150 a cord, 24 million btus a cord ) Diesel is about $14 dollars a million btus assuming $2 a gallon. locally kerosene is priced uneconomical for heating. Fuel oil is a non existent fuel source. Propane is used only when natural gas isn't available. Electric is 12 cents a KWH. I doubt the pellets are nearly that high of btus as that's only 300 pounds of pellets to equal a cord of wood

 

[LD1]

Just pulling some google numbers I get $10 per million BTUs in pellets ( $3.20 a bag on rural kings website and claimed 8,250 btus a pound). I got firewood to be $6.50 a million btus. ( $150 a cord, 24 million btus a cord ) locally kerosene is priced uneconomical for heating. Fuel oil is a non existent fuel source. Propane is used only when natural gas isn't available. Electric is 12 cents a KWH. I doubt the pellets are nearly that high of btus as that's only 300 pounds of pellets to equal a cord of wood

Missing a zero there.

3000 x 8250 = 24.75 million BTU

forgetting efficiency with the firewood too.

Sure, some modern stoves may be more efficient, air-tight catalytic burn, etc.

But most run of the mill wood stoves are 50%.

So 24M btu's in a cord/.....only 12 million goes into the house as heat (the rest up the chimney).

So $150/cord / 12 = $12.50 per million.

They are figuring pellets at 80% efficient burn. Dont know the cost of pellets, I'll trust their ~$17 per million BTU's is correct.

Their heat pump factor being only twice as efficient as electric resistance is low I think.

Most modern 2-stage (or variable) air to air units are 3:1. And a 2-stage geo closer to 4:1

So by their chart and $0.11/kwh (which is pretty close to what I pay), My geo is in the ballpark of $8/million BTU. Compared to firewood at ~$12. Which seems to fall inline with my real world experience heating the house for two years with wood, and now on my second year with the geo

 

[4570Man]

Missing a zero there.

3000 x 8250 = 24.75 million BTU

forgetting efficiency with the firewood too.

Sure, some modern stoves may be more efficient, air-tight catalytic burn, etc.

But most run of the mill wood stoves are 50%.

So 24M btu's in a cord/.....only 12 million goes into the house as heat (the rest up the chimney).

So $150/cord / 12 = $12.50 per million.

They are figuring pellets at 80% efficient burn. Dont know the cost of pellets, I'll trust their ~$17 per million BTU's is correct.

Their heat pump factor being only twice as efficient as electric resistance is low I think.

Most modern 2-stage (or variable) air to air units are 3:1. And a 2-stage geo closer to 4:1

So by their chart and $0.11/kwh (which is pretty close to what I pay), My geo is in the ballpark of $8/million BTU. Compared to firewood at ~$12. Which seems to fall inline with my real world experience heating the house for two years with wood, and now on my second year with the geo

I knew I left out efficiency of the firewood. I don't know if it was already factored in either. I also left out the fact that there's no local Rural King and you'll have to pay tax and likely shipping on your pallet of pellets. I don't know how you'd go about making a chart with any degree of accuracy. Especially if you post it on the internet because that blows any chance of it because of local cost.

 

[IXLR8]

I wish I could find a cord of dried hardwood for $150. Around here it is $250 for green, $300 for dried, cut/split/delivered/dumped.

 

[4570Man]

I wish I could find a cord of dried hardwood for $150. Around here it is $250 for green, $300 for dried, cut/split/delivered/dumped.

I wish I could sell a cord for $300. Nobody sells a cord here it's all ricks. The top end is $50 a rick and I find 3 rick is a little more than a cord. I've also found that nobody actually sells dry wood regardless of what it's marked.

 

[LD1]

I knew I left out efficiency of the firewood. I don't know if it was already factored in either. I also left out the fact that there's no local Rural King and you'll have to pay tax and likely shipping on your pallet of pellets. I don't know how you'd go about making a chart with any degree of accuracy. Especially if you post it on the internet because that blows any chance of it because a local cost.

Which is why I have said all along it all depends on local costs, and no two areas are the same.

All I know, is around here...wood is $150-$160/cord.
Electric is 0.11-0.12 per kwh
And propane is around $1.50

Propane fluctuates the most. And therefore I would never rely on it as it is too inconsistent. 3-4 years ago propane was knocking on $4-$5 a gallon....IF you could get it. Last year, around a buck.

Ultrarunner talking about electric 3x the cost of mine.
Ixlr8 talking about firewood 2x the cost.
Lack of hardwoods in some areas like out west.
My area, rural places have no natural gas.

It all varies. Each and every person's situation is different.

Would live to sell firewood for $300/cord. But if I had to pay $0.30/kwh....no thanks.

 

[turnkey4099]

I have no vendetta against wood heat. Don't know how many times I have to say that.

Simply pointing out some of the downsides is no vendetta. But you conveniently forgot to quote me when I ALSO mention the upsides to burning as well.

And I don't understand why you always want to turn this into a debate about wood being better than alternatives.

I am not even arguing what is better.

It's simply about cost. And you can brag about how little money you spend cutting wood, and how cheap your saws and truck are. That is ancillary arguments.

And again, there is no doubt in my mind that many people do indeed save money with wood.

So forgetting all this arguing and bickering back and forth about nickel and dime stuff and let's start over.

My debate, and thus participation in this thread stems from the following:

Joe bob heats with propane. And he hates the bill. He is paying $1800 a season for propane.

Joe bob decides to burn wood. Forgetting upfront cost of setting up stove, cause it isn't relevant. And Joe Bob's saws and wood hauler run on pennies in the grand scheme.

So Joe Bob now proudly boasts about his new wood heat, and that by cutting and burning 8 cord of wood a year, that he is saving $1800 a year on heat.

Now this is what I am debating. Because Joe Bob's savings are NOT $1800 per year.

Joe Bob is only saving $1800 MINUS what the value of the wood is. What could he have sold it for?

That's it. Don't know how I can make it any clearer. If you heat with wood and like it, great. Just don't fool yourself about how much you are saving.

If you don't heat with wood, and enjoy what you have, that's great too. I don't care either way. Not trying to change anyone's method of heat. IE: no vendetta.

I heat my shop with wood. Grew up with wood heat. Heated my house the first two years with it, and still have the stove, chimney, etc in working order for backup for emergencies. I just choose not to use it, because my geothermal heats my whole house, for less money.

All good points but your posts have the tone of a total 'anti wooder'. There are benefits (and drawbacks) to any kind of heat.

 

[turnkey4099]

"What next? Gonna object to people going fishing because the harvest isn't a paying proposition?"<<<Yes, what a complete waste of time when should be out cutting firewood so it be sold, so then you can go buy a Geothermal heat pump, and or oil for your oil furnace, propane for the propane furnace, wood pellets for the wood pellet furnace, remember firewood has value, can also be sold so you can buy imported fish sticks from China at your local Whole Food Store, or at Amazon.

LOL luv it!