Save $$$ - Heat with Wood

[4570Man]

10 cord is an excessive amount for most people. 6-7 seems more accurate. And that's failing to account for the fact that most of the wood I burn is un sellable.

 

[turnkey4099]

Amen. Come in from the cold and back up to a vent of heat pump air at 85 degrees and freeze your backside off for an hour, or back up to a rip roaring fire in the stove and be warm in a minute.....no comparison in my book.

As I told my wife, when it comes time to go to 'the home', if they ain't got a wood stove, keep looking !

LOL. My mother spent around 50 years heating with wood on the farm. First central heat they had was when they moved to town in IIRC 1968. When I retired (AF) in 1975 I bought a country hourse and started heating with wood. From thence on, whem mom came to visit it was in the door and back up to the stove

 

[turnkey4099]

And while in most cases another heat source would be capable of maintaining higher temperatures few people are actually going to pay for it. If I was paying for natural gas heat I'd settle for using more blankets. Burning wood doesn't directly cost me money so I can toss more in.

Yep. I get up in the moprning "D*** it's cold in here! Look at the thermometer and it's 68. And people keep it there all day long?? I won't let it get below 75 without chucking another chunk on.

 

[ultrarunner]

LOL. My mother spent around 50 years heating with wood on the farm. First central heat they had was when they moved to town in IIRC 1968. When I retired (AF) in 1975 I bought a country hourse and started heating with wood. From thence on, whem mom came to visit it was in the door and back up to the stove

My first experience with wood heat was when I spent the summer on my Grandparents rural Dairy Farm... I was age 4. Grandmother had a big porcelain and chrome cook oven... one side was wood and the other electric... all winter she used the wood side and baked all the time from scratch... didn't even own a can opener.

The heat was radiant heat with big radiators near the windows in the in the basement workshop a very large water tank fueled by wood or coal... so hot water, cooking and heat was all done by wood...

They owned a large chest freezer but no refrigerator... as they had a cold room.

 

[turnkey4099]

Then what's your beef with me?

I can sell wood for $160 cold hard cash.

I know how much heat I can buy for that $160 cold hard cash, and it Trump's the heat I can get from wood.

Taxes have absolutely nothing to do with anything I have said.

And to get that $160 cold hard cash you had to earm considerably more to cover the 160 plus taxes on what you make. You are totally missing the point.

 

[LD1]

10 cord is an excessive amount for most people. 6-7 seems more accurate. And that's failing to account for the fact that most of the wood I burn is un sellable.

It was just a simple generalization.
There are variables in every aspect. If you have a house that can be heated with 6-7 cord of wood, you probably arent paying $1800 a season to keep it warm either unless you have electric resistance only, or crazy high propane prices.

Just kept numbers simple with the 10 cord deal. And tried to come up with something realistic for the cost to replace that amount of heat with something else, and arrived at $1800.

Yes, many good and valid reasons to burn wood, as I have agreed with all along. Some just like it, or like the nice fire going in the living room fireplace, burning junk/un-sellable wood that you have to cut/clean up anyway.....etc etc.

I am just making generalizations here. And that being that most people think they save a TON of money heating with wood because its "free". And for most, that simply isnt true. Is there savings.....yea in most cases you can save some money with wood, but weather its worth the hassle, weighing pros and cons, up to each person to decide. Thats all Im saying.

And to get that $160 cold hard cash you had to earm considerably more to cover the 160 plus taxes on what you make. You are totally missing the point.

Nope. To put $160 in my pocket selling wood, I have to earn exactly $160. Ive explained this. maybe you didnt read. I pay NO taxes on the wood I sell. PERIOD. Am I not claiming it? Or am I pulling a fast one on uncle sam cheating them out of taxes? NOPE. Explained that as well.

 

[IXLR8]

That was my same scenario.

House had baseboard. Expensive.

Got through two winter's with wood. But did nothing for ac.

The cost of JUST and AC system was not much savings over a heat pump or geothermal.

So I chose Geo so I can heat AND cool with it.

I can now heat cheaper with Geo than I could with wood.

Sure it's a big upfront cost. And that certainly factors. But for me, I was looking at a big cost anyway wanting air conditioning.

I looked into Geothermal, too expensive where I live, house is basically on a ledge and putting in the coils was going to be very expensive. I put in a mini-split system to give me heat in spring and fall, AC in the summer and I do wood for the winter months. Geothermal is going in my 'forever' home, but not this one. As far as I am concerned, when building a new home, first choice sould be geothermal.

 

[LD1]

As far as I am concerned, when building a new home, first choice sould be geothermal.

Agreed

 

[Industrial Toys]

I have numerous customers with geothermal. I have heard the horror stories of compressor failures, computer boards, terribly expensive DC fans and all the service calls. Funny how no ever seems to figure that into the cost.

One tech I spoke with at length, says his Boss loves to sell the premium systems but the tech says the cheap ones are actually your better bet. The simpler and less computerized, the better. One friend actually built his own. A compressor and a few relays. I wonder what a computer could add to the value? I did the digging.

Found some pictures:

 

[IXLR8]

I have numerous customers with geothermal. I have heard the horror stories of compressor failures, computer boards, terribly expensive DC fans and all the service calls. Funny how no ever seems to figure that into the cost.

One tech I spoke with at length, says his Boss loves to sell the premium systems but the tech says the cheap ones are actually your better bet. The simpler and less computerized, the better. One friend actually built his own. A compressor and a few relays. I wonder what a computer could add to the value? I did the digging.

Lots of folks buy cheap, and get what they pay for. Computers allow full control over fans and compressor motors which add to system efficiency AND costs and complexity. The extra that it costs to get that few extra few % of efficiency, I am not sure is worth it.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Enlighten us all.

Taxes have no bearing.

You can choose to burn wood that has $160 cash value
Or you can choose to buy $160 worth of heat in the form of electric, propane, nat gas, etc.

Just how do taxes come into play?

In my case, I can choose to burn $160 worth of wood and in doing so, that pumps 12 Million BTU's of heat into my house
Or I can sell that same wood for $160 cash, hand that to my electric company, and in turn they sell me 1333 Kwh of electric. And that 1333 Kwh of power will run my geothermal long enough to put about 16-18 Million BTU's of heat in my house.

So where do taxes factor into that equation? You are trying to over-complicate things in hopes that the facts will get lost in the BS.

Some people like the heat....great. Some people are already established with a wood burning setup and cannot justify the large up-front cost to convert.....great. Some people just like being self sufficient and not depend on power or some other utility.....great. All good reasons to burn wood. But trying to justify it as a cost savings because of taxes.....100% pure BS

The thing is, hiding income is tax fraud, and makes you a criminal. Want to write off business expenses? Fine, keep records and write them off. It's how you do business.

 

[Oldpath05]

I burn around 7 cord, it takes me around 3 hr/cord to cut the trees down, de-limb and haul out. With the 7 cord out tree length, I'm figuring 15-20 hr to cut it up into stove length, around 3-4 cord has to be split so I'm figuring another 8 hr of work for splitting. Add this up and at my best guess, it comes out to around 48-52 hours of work I have to do too get 7 cord of wood, cut&split ready for road side sale, because I have no truck to deliver.

Now if this is in the ballpark sofar, how much is 50 hours of labor worth for me you and for the tractor, etc, and or is it gross or net income, and is the total dollar sale enough to buy heating system A B C D and or buy fuel for A B C..........?

 

[Snobdds]

I burn around 7 cord, it takes me around 3 hr/cord to cut the trees down, de-limb and haul out. With the 7 cord out tree length, I'm figuring 15-20 hr to cut it up into stove length, around 3-4 cord has to be split so I'm figuring another 8 hr of work for splitting. Add this up and at my best guess, it comes out to around 48-52 hours of work I have to do too get 7 cord of wood, cut&split ready for road side sale, because I have no truck to deliver.

Now if this is in the ballpark sofar, how much is 50 hours of labor worth for me you and for the tractor, etc, and or is it gross or net income, and is the total dollar sale enough to buy heating system A B C D and or buy fuel for A B C..........?

Exactly

I have not heard one mention of one's time to sell wood to buy another form of energy. Unless you work for free.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Sounds like me. I am clear cutting a half mile row of huge, old, dying willows at no charge to the farmer. When I started I suggested he couild kick in a bit of gas moneiy (17 miles from my house) occasionally. He did give me a $100 the second year, none since. I'm 82 and if it weren't for the 'wooding' I'd probably be dead or bedreidden by now. Just came in from manually splitting on my woodpile for 1.5 hours.

I hate winter as I don't get the exercise I am used to.

I agree. I'm only 70, but have 90 acres and a lot of trees that are good for nothing but firewood. I don't have to work at it 8 hours a day, but any time it's not raining I try to get out and work outside for a couple of hours. It keeps me strong. It keeps me active. It warms my house. I bought a Husquvarna chainsaw in 1995 that is still running fine,though I have replaced chains several times. It cost me $345. My wood splitter is by Armstrong, a 6 lb maul that works fine until I get winded. Then I tip a cup of coffee out of the thermos, sit in a stump and look at stuff. Years ago I worked harder at it, but I was younger then. I've heated with wood, on and off, since I was 14 years old. There are worse ways to spend your time.

 

[LD1]

The thing is, hiding income is tax fraud, and makes you a criminal. Want to write off business expenses? Fine, keep records and write them off. It's how you do business.

Calling someone a criminal and fraud.....or actually read what they write and comprehend.......

Yea, I guess name calling is the easy way out.

Exactly

I have not heard one mention of one's time to sell wood to buy another form of energy. Unless you work for free.

For my point, and for my comparison.....factoring ones time is not a consideration.

Selling the wood and taking the money from the sales and buying heat.....vs burning the wood rather than selling.....same labor hours. So they balance out.

Again, I am not arguing about the merits of burning wood. It has alot of advantages. Cost savings "can" be one of them.

But how much savings is what is being disputed. Don't matter how you figure the numbers.

If it takes someone $1500 to buy their heat.......

But they can burn 8 cord a year and not spend a dime with the utility, is that REALLY $1500 saved?

My answer is NO.

You can either look at it like this:
Sell 8 cord for $1200, and buy heat for $1500
Which means on $300 save by burning.

Or you can factor your labor hours to cut 8 cord at $1200, and still only be saving $300. Don't matter to me.

Again, I repeat, there are many reasons why people.like burning wood. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on that. I grew up burning 8-10 cord a year, heat my shop with wood, my last shop with wood, and my current house for 2 years on wood. I know every aspect of burning wood.

The debate is on saving money with wood. And people have a false belief that they are saving alot more money than they actually are by burning wood. Because wood has value.

Now whether you want to factor that value as a dollar amount you could sell the wood for, or if you want to assign a dollar value to your labor to cut it....don't matter to me.

Point is, someone who goes from $1500 utility bill; to heating with wood and a $0 utility bill....the savings is nowhere near the $1500 that is claimed. Because wood HAS VALUE.

 

[4570Man]

I'll gladly pay the natural gas bill to heat my shop. Tending to a fire would take half the time I've got to work. And it takes a new fire 30 minutes for the heat to amount to anything. I leave my gas heat set at 45 degrees and it takes about 10 minutes to get to 65 which is what temperature I like to work in.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Here many insurance companies up your rate for wood heating, and then you have to have annual cleaning and certification by a licensed outfit. That adds SIGNIFICANTLY to the cost of wood heating. Of course, they have stiffed the fuel oil heaters similarly.

 

[DieselnHooters]

Because wood HAS VALUE.

Bought my current home in 1993 along with the adjacent 40 wooded acres for $58 k, the house by itself was worth maybe 40 to 45 k so the wooded lot was 18 k max.

Poured 20k over the years into projects like ditches, culverts, gravel while cutting selectively to make room for the more valuable trees like sugar maple, yellow birch and black cherry to mature. All in all 4 or 5 cords a year for my heating needs while selling 5 to 20.

That 40 acres is now worth 120 k at the very least so I wholeheartedly agree.... wood does indeed have value.

 

[jk96]

Calling someone a criminal and fraud.....or actually read what they write and comprehend.......

Yea, I guess name calling is the easy way out.



For my point, and for my comparison.....factoring ones time is not a consideration.

Selling the wood and taking the money from the sales and buying heat.....vs burning the wood rather than selling.....same labor hours. So they balance out.

Again, I am not arguing about the merits of burning wood. It has alot of advantages. Cost savings "can" be one of them.

But how much savings is what is being disputed. Don't matter how you figure the numbers.

If it takes someone $1500 to buy their heat.......

But they can burn 8 cord a year and not spend a dime with the utility, is that REALLY $1500 saved?

My answer is NO.

You can either look at it like this:
Sell 8 cord for $1200, and buy heat for $1500
Which means on $300 save by burning.

Or you can factor your labor hours to cut 8 cord at $1200, and still only be saving $300. Don't matter to me.

Again, I repeat, there are many reasons why people.like burning wood. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on that. I grew up burning 8-10 cord a year, heat my shop with wood, my last shop with wood, and my current house for 2 years on wood. I know every aspect of burning wood.

The debate is on saving money with wood. And people have a false belief that they are saving alot more money than they actually are by burning wood. Because wood has value.

Now whether you want to factor that value as a dollar amount you could sell the wood for, or if you want to assign a dollar value to your labor to cut it....don't matter to me.

Point is, someone who goes from $1500 utility bill; to heating with wood and a $0 utility bill....the savings is nowhere near the $1500 that is claimed. Because wood HAS VALUE.

LD1 I understand the point you are making. The fallacy in the argument is the assumption that I would still cut and split 5-7 cords of wood a year regardless of whether I sell it or use it. I would not cut wood for any reason other than to burn it and neither would most others I would guess. So I have two options that I am willing to do.

Option #1. Forgo the wood heat and run my geo system 100% of the time and also not split wood. Result is X amount of $ per day in heat for our home.

Option #2. Cut and split wood and supplement my heat with our wood burning insert. Result is X amount of $ per day minus Y the amount of heat from our wood insert. X-Y=total savings by burning wood (regardless of how cheap or efficient my geo system is). And yes I understand there are some expenses such as chains, fuel, etc.

There is no Option #3 for me that involves selling wood.

 

[dodge man]

I have geo thermal and so far its been maintance free, other than filters. Lets hope that keeps up. Its really expensive but when we had ours installed there were a lot of tax credits. We also pay less for the electricity for the geo thermal.