Newbie from Oz

[kenlip]

Thanks for letting me join the group.

Some background:

Our family (me and two daughters) have bought a bush property in Laguna, NSW, which is in the lower Hunter region (edge of wine country).

It is not suitable for farming. It is totally off-grid and we plan to build a weekender house for the use of all the members of the family.

The property has some very steep hills, with roads that are currently barely passable without a 4x4.

My feeling that a tractor should be one of the first things on our shopping list has been confirmed by many folks. We will need it for road maintenance, firewood hauling, etc. So, I am in the market for a suitable tractor and the relevant attachments.

I have briefly looked at New Holland, John Deere and Kubota and keep on biasing towards Kubota. At first I considered an L3200 but a dealer convinced me to go bigger and get the L3800. Talking to another dealer came up with the advice that an L4600 would be more suitable. Mentioned this to the first dealer, who suggested that if one is looking at the L4600 (top of the L range in Oz) one is much better off spending a bit more and getting the MX5100. The advantages of the MX series were cited as more HP, 4-cylinder versus 3, turbocharged, more weight, and made in Japan rather than Taiwan.

The rest of the family were a bit horrified at the cost of the tractor so I said I'd check if one could get a better deal from a different dealer. No better deal available, but the second dealer said they prefer the Challenge FEL ( http://www.cih.com.au/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&layout=item&id=41&Itemid=238 ) to the Kubota one. The advantages he cited are (I quote):
They have over %50 more lift capacity then the Kubota, (and more than any other equivalent sized loader.) They achieve this by mounting the loader further back on the tractor which in turn better distributes weight between the axles. Larger rams also help.
The bucket is closer to the front of the tractor, this gives better vision to the bucket and keeps the overall length down which increase manoeuvrability.
The construction and finish is very strong. Their buckets are also exceptionally hard wearing.
The locking pins for the loader arms are camed, so can be turned to loosen when attaching or removing the loader arms. Making is very easy.
The bucket level indictor is a simple thing, but a big help.
When using the 4-in-1 you have proportional control of the hydraulic grab function making is easy to gently grab objects, rather than an on/off system.

So, now I am even more confused, and am hoping that the vast collective wisdom of TBN will help clarify for me which tractor to buy and whether to get the Challenge FEL and bucket of the Kubota one (assuming I go with a Kubota tractor).

I will also need help from the TBN experts deciding which attachments/s to get for sorting out the roads (grader blade, box scraper, grader-scraper, other?).

Ken

 

[Wagtail]

G'day Cobber and welcome to TBN from Tassie.

My advice is to slow down and take your time. Then go back to basics... what do you need the tractor to do = what is the single biggest job, on a semi-regular basis, that you can think of that your tractor will be needed for. Once you have that task, or tasks, in mind then go back to the dealership(s) and talk with the salesman. A good dealership will sell you the tractor that you need. Not what is 'on the lot'.

Keep in mind that tractor dealerships are not like car dealerships... they want you as a long time customer, because tractors last a heck of a lot longer than a car or ute. Playing them off against each other will have them both dumping you. Why? A dealership with a shonky reputation doesn't last long as the word in the paddock & pub gets around.

Enjoy the site.

 

[oosik]

Hello and welcome to TBN. I, more or less, understand what Wagtail has said and agree. Figure out what your biggest requirements will be - choose your tractor based upon that requirement and most everything else will fall in line.

 

[mddorange]

:welcome:
To the TBN forum Ken. Glad that you joined and you came to the right place as there is a wealth of good knowledge here.

As previously stated, get based on need not want. A lot of people will tell you that once you decide need, then go to the next size bigger as you will need it some day and that will prevent you having to up-size to soon. But as in every deal there are always trade offs. A good dealer is very important and can save you time and money latter.

Keep us informed as you go along and we can help with the pitfalls along the way.

 

[kenlip]

G'day Cobber and welcome to TBN from Tassie.

what is the single biggest job, on a semi-regular basis, that you can think of that your tractor will be needed for. Once you have that task, or tasks, in mind then go back to the dealership(s) and talk with the salesman. A good dealership will sell you the tractor that you need. Not what is 'on the lot'.

The biggest, and most regular task will be road maintenance, especially on the very steep sections.

When I asked the dealer how long it would take to get the tractor if I proceeded with the order, he said it would take two to three weeks, because they have to get one from storage, fit the FEL and 4:1, etc. If he is telling the truth, and I have no reason to suspect that he isn't, then he is not trying to sell me the one on display on the lot.

Playing them off against each other will have them both dumping you.

I had, and have, no intention of playing one off against the other. I don't operate that way. It is just that my son-in-law was shocked at the cost of the tractor (he didn't know what to expect), so to appease him I said I'd get a second quote. As it happens, the second dealer threw us a bit of a curve ball by suggesting that the Challenge FEL is better than the Kubota one. If he is right (which is something I am hoping folks of TBN will be able to help me ascertain), and the first dealer can't or won't fit a Challenge FEL, then I might be 'forced' to switch to the second dealer. If the Challenge is not better, then I'll stick with the first dealer.

 

[Wagtail]

Putting some more thought towards your situation and, having re-read your initial post... house to be built, roads to be built/up-graded/maintained and 'forestry' work/firewood hauling; have you considered a skid-steer?

I say this because there sees to be a wee bit (understatement) of digging that will be required and a skid-steer may be the answer. A tractor FEL is not designed to dig (even though 'we' tend to abuse the heck out of them) but is designed to lift & carry.

 

[kenlip]

Putting some more thought towards your situation and, having re-read your initial post... house to be built, roads to be built/up-graded/maintained and 'forestry' work/firewood hauling; have you considered a skid-steer?

I say this because there sees to be a wee bit (understatement) of digging that will be required and a skid-steer may be the answer. A tractor FEL is not designed to dig (even though 'we' tend to abuse the heck out of them) but is designed to lift & carry.

Thanks, Wagtail,

The excavation for the house will require a bulldozer. The dozer can also knock over the few trees that need to be removed from the build site.

The roads are all built, but their surfaces are deteriorating. They were well constructed, with good crowns and drainage, but time takes a toll on the surface, especially on the steep portions. I don't think they will require much digging, but more along the lines of redistribution of material close to the surface.

At the very start of this exercise I looked at a skid-steer. They seemed to be a lot more expensive than tractors. A mate of mine has two two Bobcats and small dozer. He bought them second-hand. I don't know how many hours they had but he told me that the Bobcats are always needing repairs, sometimes quite costly ones. He has seen my property and his advice was to get a tractor rather than a skid-steer.

For the few times when I need more serious digging than a tractor can handle I think I might be better off paying a skilled dozer or excavator operator to tackle the task. They don't come cheap, but can do a lot more in a day than I could hope to do in a month with a skid steer, especially given that I am not on the property full-time.

Having said all that, I have an open mind on the subject and will have another look at skid-steers. Would you be suggesting a wheeled or a tracked skid-steer?

 

[TBN Support]

:welcome:

Welcome to the forum!

:tractor: I'm going to move this thread over to our buying, pricing and comparisons section.

 

[Wagtail]

Well, to be honest, you've said that it's going to be a weekender retreat on a bush property. You're not going to clear a whole heap of it to turn into paddocks.

When the house is built... plus area for the water tank(s), the septic tank & field [unless you're opting for a long-drop ], a storage shed (container?) and clearing all the foliage/trees for your bushfire break... that says to me that a lot of digging is in your immediate future.

You've got a mate who can readily advise you regarding skid-steers & the major colours (Bobcat, Kubota, JD, etc...), plus others, make quality skid-steers with all of the implements that you require. If you're going to spend the money you might as well get the right tool for the job(s).

As to wheeled or tracked? You know the terrain better than I do but, if it's virgin bush, I'd lean towards tracked.

 

[kenlip]

When the house is built... plus area for the water tank(s), the septic tank & field [unless you're opting for a long-drop ], a storage shed (container?) and clearing all the foliage/trees for your bushfire break... that says to me that a lot of digging is in your immediate future.

We got the bulldozer on site for a day. In that time, he excavated into a hill to build a flat area for the shipping container, used the material form that excavation to build up a flattened area for camping and cleared and flattened a bed (about 25 metres higher up from the main build area) that will comfortably accomodate a 135,000 litre tank. He also did a bit of road work but the ground was painfully dry so he was reluctant to disturb the surface too much. He said it would make the road worse, not better, if he did too much grading in those conditions.

Our plan is to camp on the property while we go through the process of designing and a house and having it built. That could take a year or two :-( We will get him back to drill a long-drop to use while we are camping on the site, and to drill the holes for piers for a shelter over the shipping container. My current plan is to use two 6x6 carports (kits from Lysaght) to build a 12x6 shelter. This will provide shade for the container and a covered area under which to park the tractor and for us to use while camping. Of course, I am open to any opinions about this idea. The 72 square metres of roof will be the catchment for a small tank behind the container. Not much, but better than nothing.

When it comes time to build, I'll get him back on site and with his 20-ton bulldozer and large excavator. He can prepare the build site, dig the hole for the worm-farm sewerage system, prepare the run-off trenches and cut the fire breaks. He estimates it will take two days to do all of that work. Having watched him work when he did the first bit of earthworks, I think he could knock it all out in the two days. Not a big problem if he takes three days.

You've got a mate who can readily advise you regarding skid-steers & the major colours (Bobcat, Kubota, JD, etc...), plus others, make quality skid-steers with all of the implements that you require. If you're going to spend the money you might as well get the right tool for the job(s).

While I hold him in extremely high regard (read a bit about him and see what he has done, at DIY Paradise: Trailshare Cabins, Kulnura – Flow Mountain Bike ), his opinion is only the opinion of one man. TBN has over 300,000 members, so I am hoping to get more than just my mate's advice.

 

[Thomas]

:welcome: to TBN Ken...enjoy.

 

[Tractorable]

How much land do you have?

I'm not familiar with a Challenge loader, but I'd be skeptical of some of the claims about its performance as compared to the Kubota loader. Manufacturers like Kubota match the performance of their loaders to the size and weight of the tractor. Installing an aftermarket loader with much greater specs could quickly lead to an unsafe situation. The Kubota MX series is a 4000 pound machine with a 2500 pound lift capacity on the loader. Lifting more than that could get you into trouble. I'd also be concerned about the resale of the tractor with an aftermarket loader.

Choose the implements you need first and then choose a tractor capable enough to power those implements.

 

[kenlip]

How much land do you have?

100 acres. All bush (mainly eucalypts). About 2 acres for a dwelling. About 5 kilometres of roads

I'm not familiar with a Challenge loader, but I'd be skeptical of some of the claims about its performance as compared to the Kubota loader. Manufacturers like Kubota match the performance of their loaders to the size and weight of the tractor. Installing an aftermarket loader with much greater specs could quickly lead to an unsafe situation. The Kubota MX series is a 4000 pound machine with a 2500 pound lift capacity on the loader. Lifting more than that could get you into trouble. I'd also be concerned about the resale of the tractor with an aftermarket loader.

Excellent advice. I have decided to get the Kubota loader.

Choose the implements you need first and then choose a tractor capable enough to power those implements.

That, together with the steepness of some of the roads, is how I arrived at the decision to get the MX5100.

 

[Wagtail]

Good stuff on your decision, you'll be more than happy with it: TractorData.com Kubota MX51 tractor information I saw on TV this evening that Kubota is having a sales promotion and it specifically included the MX5100.

On top of the implements that you're considering (bundling as much as you can into the purchase price to save on GST), have them load the tyres for extra weight.

I also note that there's a backhoe option. If you can afford it, I'd recommend it as I still reckon that you've got a lot of digging 'fun' in your future... I'm thinking stumps and, especially, large rocks.

 

[kenlip]

I saw on TV this evening that Kubota is having a sales promotion and it specifically included the MX5100.

The only promotion I can find is their offer of 0.9% finance for 40 months. On BX and L series it is 0%.

(bundling as much as you can into the purchase price to save on GST),

I don't quite follow this. How can I save on GST?

Thanks
Ken

 

[Wagtail]

The only promotion I can find is their offer of 0.9% finance for 40 months. On BX and L series it is 0%.



I don't quite follow this. How can I save on GST?

Thanks
Ken

The 10% GST is calculated on the total invoice, not the individual items. So the more items/implements that you can put onto that invoice, the less GST you'll be paying.

 

[kenlip]

The 10% GST is calculated on the total invoice, not the individual items. So the more items/implements that you can put onto that invoice, the less GST you'll be paying.

Huh?

Let's look at 3 items, one for $1,000, one for $500, and one for $100

Calculating GST on the individual items:
10% of 1,000 = 100
10% of 500 = 50
10% of 100 = 10
Total GST = 100+50+10 = 160

Calculating the GST on the total invoice:
Total invoice = 1,000+500+100 = 1,600
10% of 1,600 = 160

 

[Wagtail]

Fine. Whatever.

Enjoy your new tractor and implements.

 

[Wagtail]

Fine. Whatever.

Enjoy your new tractor and implements.

Sorry. That came off as being snarky.

What I originally meant was that, by bundling as many implements together in your initial purchase you'll most likely get a discount on those implements plus the 'set up' costs. (ie: you want a 4in1 bucket... that entails setting up a hydraulic remote on your FEL, which could reduce labour costs as it may be absorbed in the 'wet up' {preparing your tractor for delivery}

Then there's the shipping fees for the implements themselves. Not all of the implements you're considering will be made by Kubota. All of these, done at one time will reduce the final invoice and, as such, the GST you'll need to pay.

 

[kenlip]

Sorry. That came off as being snarky.

No offence taken

What I originally meant was that, by bundling as many implements together in your initial purchase you'll most likely get a discount on those implements plus the 'set up' costs. (ie: you want a 4in1 bucket... that entails setting up a hydraulic remote on your FEL, which could reduce labour costs as it may be absorbed in the 'wet up' {preparing your tractor for delivery}

Then there's the shipping fees for the implements themselves. Not all of the implements you're considering will be made by Kubota. All of these, done at one time will reduce the final invoice and, as such, the GST you'll need to pay.

Absolutely. Buying a big order should help to get a discount.

Interestingly, I have done a bit of research on some of the implements and am a bit concerned about the dealer I am hoping to buy from. His prices for attachments seems to be very high. For example, pallet forks for which he quoted $1,700 are available form other suppliers for $1089. Of course, there will be freight charges. But, I can't imagine freight for a set of forks could be $600 (I could be wrong - I'll need to check). For the supplier of the tractor, the freight is virtually zero. If he puts a box of forks on the same truck as the tractor, it is hardly going to be much of an additional cost.

I'll need to check freight charges from other companies and also give the dealer a chance to explain/justify his charges.