Workmaster 50 hydraulic problem, Am i getting the ?????

[nwut05]

Hello . It's a long post but i had to tell the story for you to understand...

FIRST AND FOREMOST........ I want to say that i am not and will not.. dealer bash or bad mouth...and if you happen to read this post and know of the situation please, Do not mention the dealer or the people that are involved. THEY have all been great at trying to fix my tractors problem THANK"S

I need some other opinions...... I recently purchased a brand new Workmaster 50. I took delivery late June. they unloaded the tractor and i got on it and drove it around the farm. the next day i hooked a bushog (5") up to it and started bushogging. And occasionally i would need to move the loader up and down to miss obstacles or just push a bush or something out of the way. About 2 hours into this i noticed that if i moved the loader up and down the thing would vibrate/stutter shake and in general seem to have air in the hydraulics. So i called the dealer and spoke with the service manager, he said it was air and it should work out of the system with use and if it didn't to call him back. So i continued to use the tractor that day and it did not get any better, so with this problem in mind i decided to move some dirt the next day. i started early and after just a few minuets the problem appeared again. So i called the service manager back and he immediately said well the problem is the hydraulic pump we will come get it and fix it for you. In the mean time i had hay down and needed to bale with the tractor so he said sure use it, he had to order the pump anyway just be careful with the loader and the 3 point and all should be fine, the pump was bad anyway i couldn't hurt anything on the tractor. so i did bale with it and about a week later they came got the tractor. This was on a Friday evening, Monday morning they called and said the tractor was fixed and they would bring it back Thursday if that was OK. So they brought it back Thursday evening and it was just before a monsoon rain hit and it rained all day Friday.So Saturday was clear and i again hooked the bushhog up and away i went . i had been at it about 10 minuets when the same problem appeared again but with a vengeance this time...worse that before...so i put the machine in the barn and waited til Monday. I called dealer the following Monday and again spoke with the service manager. he said he would send a truck out and get it again and bring it in to fix it again. they came got it that Tuesday. The next day the service manager called and said they could not get the tractor to do anything and asked me to stop by. so I went over that afternoon and after about 2 minuets on the tractor it started having the same symptoms. They said they would get in contact with new holland and get a fix suggestion?
So a week later the service manager called me and said we have your tractor fixed. and wanted to bring it back the following Monday. At this point i told him i would come to him and test the tractor before i took delivery again. So Monday came and i went over and met with the service manager and a technician. they told me new holland had suggested them replacing the hydraulic filter and if need be the hydraulic filter housing. So i went out to the yard and got on the tractor, Started it up and after about 10 cycles up and down on the loader and three point it started vibrating bucking again. So i turned the tractor off and said now what ? the service manager said to me, Well new holland suggests we replace the filter housing, Do you want us to do that? You guessed my answer:thumbsup: so after a few days i got another call that said we got it fixed this time...... come test it. So i went over to the shop and got on the tractor and You also guessed this too, after a few cycles up and down it was still doing the vibrating/bucking/stuttering. So at this point I got a little ....lets say dissapointed......and went straight to the dealer/owner...who came out and got on the tractor and seen what it was doing......he said we would get it fixed...whatever it took.......so the next day they called again and said look we have replaced the hydraulic pump, filter, filter housing, loader valve, 3 point valve, basically everything in the hydraulic system is new except the hoses. Please come try it again. SO again i went over that evening and got on the tractor with the service manager and a technician watching, Guess What:mur:.....YUP!!!did it again.... They were astonished dumbfounded:irked: and outright just confused.:confused2: So instead of getting mad i just shut the tractor off and asked them is there anything you guys can think of that you can do to fix this. There Reply to me was we have done all we know to do..... so i went and spoke to the owner/dealer again and the service manager went with me and during that conversation we had the discussion about the service manager trying one more time to fix it and extended warranties and possible replacement unit.....I wasn't sure what to do but, what the heck take a look i told the service manager... So that evening, LATE...... that evening after the dealers normal closing time I get a call telling me my tractor is fixed and to come over the next day and try it . So again the next day i go over and guess what The tractor works flawlessly When i ask what they done the reply i got was we adjusted the sensitivity of the three point linkage, It was set wrong from the factory.....:scratchchin:

So here is my Question? If this was such a simple fix by just adjusting the three point sensitivity linkage on the top link. Why did it take so long of them working with it, and then telling me they done all they knew to do. And does anyone know if this is a true fix, or am getting the old Barney Fife, sawdust in the tranny fix just to get me to accept the tractor back???:confused3:

 

[sixdogs]

You have a great dealer and sometimes these things happen. Maybe they should have known and maybe they shouldn't have known but maybe it never happened to them before. We've all had those problems and I would just let it go. Well, not exactly...

I would order enough pizza for everyone there or maybe ice cream for everyone on some hot day. He's a good enough dealer that you want to cultivate that relationship. I will say if that problem happens again that owner will marvel at the ability of the dealer to immediately diagnose the problem.

 

[nwut05]

Thank You for that opinion, Yes i have thought of some of those suggestions and again sorry about the long story but it is hard to say it without the whole thing.

Cultivating the relationship is no problem, I just hope as you say it was/is a learning experience for us all. And the next guy in line if there ever is one keeps his cool long enough to let this young service manager work with it and grow into one of the finest in our area.

Any more opinions are welcome Again Thank You

 

[Dave M7040]

I cannot disagree with Sixdogs but if I owned the machine I would always be distrustful of it.

Dealerships change hands and people get sick or die and then your history with the dealership no longer has value.

I would be asking for another machine. Not in a yelling, demanding way but quietly explain your long term concerns and your willingness to acknowledge that you did get some use from it which has a $ value. You need to be prepared to spend some $ to help soften the pain for the dealership. Perhaps by getting a machine with more options than the original.

When I am buying a used anything, I am looking at bolts and nuts to see if the factory paint has been disturbed. If I see evidence of something having been changed, I often walk away as it is hard to beat the factory assembly line build procedures in terms of component alignment, clearances and torques.

Dave M7040

 

[nwut05]

I also agree with your opinion Dave M7040, and have had a day or so to think about the safety issue Possibility. I am not new to machinery, Heck i basically grew up around and operating tractors, trucks and have done factory work in and around large machinery for many long hours. BUT One of the things in the back of my mind with this is, There isn't a warranty in the world gonna help me if i'm in the middle of a field and the three point malfunction and drop a 1500lb disk or plow on my leg or foot while i am adjusting the linkage in the rear.....?:2cents:

Also, Ref to the paint on the bolts...they said they would send my unit through the paint department before they would let it come back...just to touch up a few scratches they put on it while working on/around it. So Be aware of that too.

 

[Dave M7040]

Also, Ref to the paint on the bolts...they said they would send my unit through the paint department before they would let it come back...just to touch up a few scratches they put on it while working on/around it. So Be aware of that too.[/QUOTE]

There is not a touch up method in the world that will make a scratch or flaked off powered coat finish look like factory.

Awhile back an old guy, much older than my 70 years backed into my vehicle while I was in a line in a shopping center parking lot.
I saw him coming, blew my horn but could not move. He got got out of his Escalade and licked his finger and wiped it across the scratches and said there you cannot even see them

Dave M7040

 

[sixdogs]

I'm pretty tightly wound with equipment but don't think I'd be trying for a new tractor for those things. No harm was really caused and I don't think they would comply anyway. I don't think it's needed and don't this this type of problem will recur and really, I don't think anything was hurt. Maybe that's just me and remember, I'm pretty picky. Just my two cents.

Had someone in an Escalade scratched my truck and wiped his finger across it like that I would suggest he use it to call his insurance company for me so I wouldn't have to use my finger to report a hit and run.



Years ago I had have an implement that was not right from the get-go despite many dealer repairs and re-repairs, etc. Not at all like your problem; this had something wrong. Finally, I said "how about I trade this in on a new one?". They agreed, I obviously got a sweetheart trade and got a new one. I'm out $200 but we're all friends.

Now, two years later I get offered a deal on a very desirable tractor that I wanted--and so did everyone else--for almost 32% off retail. $14,000 less. Yes, I bought it in a flash. Just my two cents and I don't think you need or will get a new tractor for a pump change. You could wind up with worse than you already have. I've seen that happen.

I would not worry about it but if it does, discuss concerns with the owner confidentially and ask his advice on what to do. Maybe ask how much it would cost to trade? That's a great tractor, by the way, and one I would like to own. Wait, did I mention I don't think you need a new tractor?

 

[Turbys_1700]

Sorry that you have had some issues with your tractor. Your dealer really tried. Evidently they looked at the wrong fix when it was a simple fix. That happens sometimes. At least they tried to get you going. That is the main thing. I've owned the same tractor for over 16 months now and have had zero issues. I would expect since this issue has been resolved you are good to go. Good luck and keep us updated. You have a good dealer.

 

[nwut05]

Sixdogs, Thank You again. I am not asking for a new tractor but i haven't ruled out the possibility of trading even up to the 60 or 70 series in this workmaster lineup. i, just looking for some opinions and your's are appreciated as i have already stated and like hearing from others with maybe more experience than me with this kind of problem. I would like to note that i bought and own another tractor. same dealership, same owner sold it too me 7 years ago and it has not been in the shop one time. also own several pieces of equipment bought there. So relationship is good so far. Honestly i just really do not want this problem again. And would rather know is the simple linkage adjustment was the fix or just the band aid.....

 

[LD1]

Im gonna offer my :2cents: on a few key points.

Yes, its nice to have a dealer that will bend over backwards, come get and deliver your tractor numerous times (assuming at no charge) because transportation is something warranty usually dont cover.

However, I would have absolutely ZERO confidence in their service dept.

For starters, as reading your story, I kept asking myself WHY are they calling you saying "its fixed come try it out" only for you to waste a trip in and have it mess up right on the dealers lot? Could they not have done that before they called you and said "its fixed" ?

Second, not sure what they fixed really. The vague description you give indicates it could be either the feedback linkage adjustment of the 3PH, which is external. Or the valve adjustment (internal), or a draft control adjustment (could be internal or external). I am actually leaning toward a simple external feedback adjustment because they already "claimed" they changed the 3PH valve once? Or perhaps they didnt adjust it right the first time either. But my point, at the end of the day, They "claimed" to replace 2 pumps (probably $1500 ea), A 3PH valve (probably $1000), a loader valve (probably $1000) and a filter housing and filters and other misc parts + oil (probably another $500-1000).

So they threw $5500-$6000 in parts at this tractor, countless shop hours, wasted many trips to haul, as well as waste your time. When did technician skill and basic troubleshooting go out the window?

I know I have beat my head against the wall trying to figure out problems before, and suspecting expensive parts and bracing myself......but at some point before shelling out $6000 in parts......it would be wise to make sure the part was the problem.

Too many dealers and service shops these days (not just tractors) are nothing more than part changers. Takes little skill to guess and swap parts. Real skill is in diagnosing and troubleshooting.

And I am sure they as a dealer have access to all the necessary testing and troubleshooting procedures via the service manuals for testing the pump, testing the loader valve, testing and adjusting the 3PH valve, adjusting the 3PH feedback, etc. Perhaps They should have used it.

Regarding your new tractor. I agree no replacement needed unless you choose to upgrade. No harm was done to your tractor. Its not like you had a catastrophic failure of a hydraulic component that sent debris through out the system. They pulled off alot of nearly new but good working parts and replaced them with bran new parts that also work. So no harm no fowl.

The tractor is fixed, and you are happy. Thats all that matters. But I think my patience would have been expended after they dropped it off the first time and said "its fixed" when it wasnt. Let alone the other 2 or 3 times they called you into the dealer with the same claim. IT seems clear that when they "think" they fixed it, they just pulled it out and parked it without bothering to test it.

 

[nwut05]

Im gonna offer my :2cents: on a few key points.

Yes, its nice to have a dealer that will bend over backwards, come get and deliver your tractor numerous times (assuming at no charge) because transportation is something warranty usually dont cover.

However, I would have absolutely ZERO confidence in their service dept.

For starters, as reading your story, I kept asking myself WHY are they calling you saying "its fixed come try it out" only for you to waste a trip in and have it mess up right on the dealers lot? Could they not have done that before they called you and said "its fixed" ?

Second, not sure what they fixed really. The vague description you give indicates it could be either the feedback linkage adjustment of the 3PH, which is external. Or the valve adjustment (internal), or a draft control adjustment (could be internal or external). I am actually leaning toward a simple external feedback adjustment because they already "claimed" they changed the 3PH valve once? Or perhaps they didnt adjust it right the first time either. But my point, at the end of the day, They "claimed" to replace 2 pumps (probably $1500 ea), A 3PH valve (probably $1000), a loader valve (probably $1000) and a filter housing and filters and other misc parts + oil (probably another $500-1000).

So they threw $5500-$6000 in parts at this tractor, countless shop hours, wasted many trips to haul, as well as waste your time. When did technician skill and basic troubleshooting go out the window?

I know I have beat my head against the wall trying to figure out problems before, and suspecting expensive parts and bracing myself......but at some point before shelling out $6000 in parts......it would be wise to make sure the part was the problem.

Too many dealers and service shops these days (not just tractors) are nothing more than part changers. Takes little skill to guess and swap parts. Real skill is in diagnosing and troubleshooting.

And I am sure they as a dealer have access to all the necessary testing and troubleshooting procedures via the service manuals for testing the pump, testing the loader valve, testing and adjusting the 3PH valve, adjusting the 3PH feedback, etc. Perhaps They should have used it.

Regarding your new tractor. I agree no replacement needed unless you choose to upgrade. No harm was done to your tractor. Its not like you had a catastrophic failure of a hydraulic component that sent debris through out the system. They pulled off alot of nearly new but good working parts and replaced them with bran new parts that also work. So no harm no fowl.

The tractor is fixed, and you are happy. Thats all that matters. But I think my patience would have been expended after they dropped it off the first time and said "its fixed" when it wasnt. Let alone the other 2 or 3 times they called you into the dealer with the same claim. IT seems clear that when they "think" they fixed it, they just pulled it out and parked it without bothering to test it.

LD 1 Thanks, To make it a little clearer they did only replace the pump once, they ordered and replaced the hydraulic filter housing once, and then once that did not fix it the dealer owner had them rob a new 60 on the lot for the needed loader valve assembly and 3 point parts. Each time i was at the dealer the technician told me the pressures and diagnostic tests they done were fine and within specs. So as you say i suspected and still suspect the tractor was never tested properly before i was called. Also for them to tell me that all the testing and diagnostics were reading ok then to miraculously come up with an adjustment to the 3 point draft control sensitivity, stating it was out of whack from the factory makes me wonder?

Also for Everybody's knowledge the tractor had 34 hours on it as of 2 days ago when i last seen it and was delivered with 3. I put roughly 24 hours on it myself the rest is or has been at the dealership .

 

[LD1]

Well if they were swapping parts with a 60 from the lot....and they really did change everything on the hydraulics except the hoses as they claim.......Was that draft control adjustment or whatever also screwed up on the new 60 parts they put on your machine and didnt fix the issue til they adjusted it?

Edit:

30-50 years ago everyone knew what draft control was and what feedback linkages was. Everyone that owned a tractor knew how to adjust them if needed, and certainly all dealers knew. Again....people actually used to diagnose stuff. Now its just too easy to swap parts til that magic combination is found.

 

[nwut05]

LD1 I do not know if the draft linkage was messed up on the new 60 or not, Don't think they do either. I guess the new owner of it will find out when that time comes. Also I agree with you as far as knowing what the draft link is/does or how to adjust it has been a part of my life for years with other equipment my family owns. I really think that possibly that late night call i got from the service manager would translate to this POSSIBLY?, We had someone we knew with experience come by after hours and fix your tractor!

But i do not know that for sure.


I really just hope it is fixed.

If not a trade may be coming my way, and take the loss now instead of later while i still got some chance.....

 

[LD1]

When I questioned the draft linkage on the 60 being messed up from the factory.....

That was assuming that was one of the many parts they swapped over to YOUR 50 and still didnt fix the issue.

Meaning that as the 60 sat on the lot.....prior to them stealing parts off of it.....also had something messed up with the 3PH.

So whats more likely.....NH sent out two mis-adjusted tractors from the factory?

or

Your dealer was feeding a line of BS when they claimed they have replaced everything to do with the hydraulics except the hoses?

Cause if they indeed did swap everything but the hoses....and the solution was a valve/linkage adjustment......in my mind that means it was ALSO incorrectly adjusted on the 60 before they stole it to try on yours.

 

[nwut05]

Now that is a very good way to look at things from a different perspective LD1


I will make them SHOW me exactly the parts they replaced and that way i know what they said they replaced and not just listen to them TELL me.


As you say if they put the 60's parts on mine. and mine was testing fine before the parts swap and then it was testing out of adjustment from the factory. mine may have been right and they just fixed the 60' problem but with the part on my tractor.

 

[nwut05]

Just to update... Spoke with dealer/owner Saturday 8-19-17 again...told him i still had some concerns/distrust about the tractor being fixed. He told me that he needed to know it was fixed and told me to take it back and run it 20 hrs, and that the reason he needed to know was, and i quote "good help is hard to find" . He then stated if i wasn't satisfied or it wasn't fixed he would give me the full purchase price on trade and we would just start over. Even wrote me a deal sheet up on a Workmaster 60 that i think is hard to beat after going through this with a 50. They are supposed to bring it back Monday and we shall see what happens.

 

[sixdogs]

You have a wonderful dealer.

 

[bspeedy]

That's a fair offer from the dealer. Sounds like he is certainly trying. I personally would not be terribly concerned about all the parts changing. Unless there are leaks or problems within those 20 hours, I would expect the tractor to perform like a tractor that never had the issue.

 

[nwut05]

Thanks, bspeedy

I do believe they are trying also, NOW for the update.... I got the tractor back yesterday here at the farm, it was delivered all cleaned up and washed. I hooked it up to the drum mower and went to mow hay as the weather is not looking too bad the next few days. Wasn't long until i noticed a puddle of hydraulic fluid on the right running board near the deferential pedal:irked:. So i shut the machine down and got to looking and it was leaking from the block that the 3 pt draft and position controls go into under the right side of the seat.......... Speaking of the Position/ Draft control the first thing i noticed after hooking up the drum was i had position control and no draft control :mur:mur:....... Needless to say the dealer/owner got a call on his cell today, as it was too late yesterday ....... To Be Continued.... P.S. it had 37 hours on now has 40.4

 

[Oldpath05]

"am getting the old Barney Fife, sawdust in the tranny fix just to get me to accept the tractor back??"<<<<That's one of my favorite episodes, the best shows were the ones with Barney and Gomer together.
I was beginning to think that the NH WorkMaster was immuned to problems, haven't noticed them posted or complained about til this one and sounds like you have a doozy, cant believe you haven't demanded another tractor by now, I'd be foaming at the bit after all this crap, good luck.