Buying Advice Kioti NX or RX and horsepower needed

[Coyote machine]

Sorry to burst your bubble but the following just doesn't apply, no matter how much you want it to, IMHO.

You stated: True, the operator's skills are so important, but really how difficult is it to read the manual and start using the hydraulic levers...may be takes one hour to go up the learning curve...but then it is just a tedious task of left right front back.

I usually watch a youtube video on how to operate something, and then go for it."

You may have mad youtube skills after looking at DIY videos, BUT I seriously doubt you will be a competent hoe operator in a few hours of pulling levers. Maybe you'll prove me wrong, but I know it took me quite some time to 'master' my hoe and I have nearly 1500 hours on my 2 Kiotis since 2009.

Learning to drive a car, no problem. Learning to be able to effectively dig a trench and move dirt to where you want it to go, not so easy. I watch the excavator who works various different equipment on my property for big $, and I am always amazed at how efficient he is in getting things done. I try to fathom why he does various movements with a machine that might even seem counterintuitive watching them but in the big picture it always makes sense. And I've had many many hours watching the several machines I've had on my property since 2009 amounting to well over $150,000 in excavation costs. Believe me, time is big $ when it comes to being efficient with an excavator, or any digging machine.
You'll learn it one way or another, but bigger just doesn't equate to better. The phrase the right tool for the job is very apt when it comes to most machinery, especially tractors.

 

[GAFarmer2]

Sorry to burst your bubble but the following just doesn't apply, no matter how much you want it to, IMHO.

You stated: True, the operator's skills are so important, but really how difficult is it to read the manual and start using the hydraulic levers...may be takes one hour to go up the learning curve...but then it is just a tedious task of left right front back.

I usually watch a youtube video on how to operate something, and then go for it."

You may have mad youtube skills after looking at DIY videos, BUT I seriously doubt you will be a competent hoe operator in a few hours of pulling levers. Maybe you'll prove me wrong, but I know it took me quite some time to 'master' my hoe and I have nearly 1500 hours on my 2 Kiotis since 2009.

Learning to drive a car, no problem. Learning to be able to effectively dig a trench and move dirt to where you want it to go, not so easy. I watch the excavator who works various different equipment on my property for big $, and I am always amazed at how efficient he is in getting things done. I try to fathom why he does various movements with a machine that might even seem counterintuitive watching them but in the big picture it always makes sense. And I've had many many hours watching the several machines I've had on my property since 2009 amounting to well over $150,000 in excavation costs. Believe me, time is big $ when it comes to being efficient with an excavator, or any digging machine.
You'll learn it one way or another, but bigger just doesn't equate to better. The phrase the right tool for the job is very apt when it comes to most machinery, especially tractors.

Words to live by!

 

[IslandTractor]

Kubota BX25! That's like the joke JD 1025R...that's really kid's toy. So explain to me this: the digging force for backhoe is 2,036 (for 1025R) and 3,748 (for KB2485). That is almost twice the force, and when you add to that the weights of the tractors (2,000 lb vs 4,000 lb) and gpm (3.5 vs 10), how can you really convince me that there is no difference in time to complete the job? If the job you described earlier takes 6 hours with 1025R, I would expect to save some noticeable time with DX? Otherwise, it makes no sense from physics. True, the operator's skills are so important, but really how difficult is it to read the manual and start using the hydraulic levers...may be takes one hour to go up the learning curve...but then it is just a tedious task of left right front back.

I usually watch a youtube video on how to operate something, and then go for it.

For the FEL work, you're right...I can save time getting trucks to dump in different spots. But if I can make 200 trips (using 0.8 yard bucket) instead of 400 trips (using 0.4 yard bucket), then it may be worth getting the larger bucket. Especially if I am selling that in few years...then I get most of my money back. Also, I am paying cash...so no interest lost here.

And, you're right about the F350 F450 analogy. The thing is, I may be buying a larger property (10+ acres) soon and that may have its own tasks.

I wasn't saying that a BX25 could do the same work in the same time as a full size TLB, my point was that you could do your project with a BX25. Sure, it might take an extra day or maybe even two but the task is within the work envelope of the BX. It is also doable with a much larger machine like a Kubota M59 or JD110 but you don't need that large a machine. I'm not suggesting you get a BX but honestly you could have had the project half finished by now in the time you've been pondering tractor choices if you'd used one.

You can spend all the time you want calculating how much more capable a 30gpm TLB is over a 3gpm machine but when a task can be done reasonably efficiently with the smaller machine, why waste money and space on a bigger one. Except when used to it's limit, a 30gpm machine is not ten times faster than a 3gph machine. Your project simply won't use the full capabilities of a big TLB. Smaller machines have their virtues. My first tractor was a Kioti CK20 TLB. I upgraded to a DK40se with bigger BH but there are many tasks for which the smaller tractor is superior. More maneuverable in woods, easier to manage near buildings, easier to store, easier to mount implements, less damage to sod etc etc. So what if a given one time trench digging project takes 8 hours instead of 5? Doubling digging capacity does not cut work time in half. You will use 80% of the capacity of a small tractor and 20-40% of the capacity of a large tractor to do the jobs you outlined. The small tractor will dig a 12" wide trench while the bigger will probably dig 50% more dirt with a wider 18" trench. Assuming your drainage pipe is about 6", which is really the more efficient?

Future use is an important consideration. In my case I had good reason to upgrade from a CK20 to DK40 but after completing a few projects beyond the capabilities of the CK, I might actually be better served with the smaller machine. In general I find that so long as a tractor can actually accomplish a task that it is better for a homeowner to have the smaller rather than larger tractor option. In your case you've described several pretty straightforward tasks. A man with a shovel and wheel barrow could do all of them. You have no two ton boulders to move or massive stumps to extract. A commercial operation can justify over capacity for a number of reasons but a homeowner really should try to get just the right size for 80-90% of tasks and accept that the other 10-20% will take a bit longer than with a bigger machine.

 

[check]

Kubota BX25! That's like the joke JD 1025R...that's really kid's toy. So explain to me this: the digging force for backhoe is 2,036 (for 1025R) and 3,748 (for KB2485). That is almost twice the force, and when you add to that the weights of the tractors (2,000 lb vs 4,000 lb) and gpm (3.5 vs 10), how can you really convince me that there is no difference in time to complete the job? If the job you described earlier takes 6 hours with 1025R, I would expect to save some noticeable time with DX? Otherwise, it makes no sense from physics. True, the operator's skills are so important, but really how difficult is it to read the manual and start using the hydraulic levers...may be takes one hour to go up the learning curve...but then it is just a tedious task of left right front back. I usually watch a youtube video on how to operate something, and then go for it. For the FEL work, you're right...I can save time getting trucks to dump in different spots. But if I can make 200 trips (using 0.8 yard bucket) instead of 400 trips (using 0.4 yard bucket), then it may be worth getting the larger bucket. Especially if I am selling that in few years...then I get most of my money back. Also, I am paying cash...so no interest lost here. And, you're right about the F350 F450 analogy. The thing is, I may be buying a larger property (10+ acres) soon and that may have its own tasks.

My BX25 trenches just fine, and seems to have plenty of down force. How hard is your soil?

 

[trctorfan17]

IT, you said "I'm not suggesting you get a BX but honestly you could have had the project half finished by now in the time you've been pondering tractor choices if you'd used one."

I did spend a lot of time but it wasn't pondering tractors. I had to learn many things about TLB in general, then about the different brands then the tractor size. That was a must do anyway to avoid making a mistake buying the wrong brand or an under-powered tractor. I've heard about a lot of people going to upgrade from a smaller machine (like 1025R or BX25) to 3039R. So my point is, why waste my time buying a smaller one and then go and get a bigger one few years later?

Most of the time I spent so far was about learning different things that are very useful in the long run.

Put yourself in my shoes, JD guys tell me go for 4044R, Kubota guys tell me go for L4760, but Kioti guys tell me for CK3510.

What if my other property that I am buying soon needs a bush hog? I won't go for the standard duty cutter RC2060 that only needs 20 PTO HP...that would be a waste of my time. I would go for the medium duty RC3084 that needs 40 PTO HP. But to mow at higher speeds with 7' cutter, I need more engine HP...this way I can fly through 10 acres of mowing, okay may be take one hour to mow the 10 acres.

And yes Coyote, I never used a cutter before...but this is really like driving a car but only at 18 mph.

 

[trctorfan17]

My BX25 trenches just fine, and seems to have plenty of down force. How hard is your soil?

my soil is always dry but level (top of a hill). What is your digging speed, how many linear feet per hour? on average soil (not wet and not ledge).

 

[trctorfan17]

BTW IT, Kioti seems to have discontinued DK40, now they start with DK45, do you know why?

 

[Amvcane]

Trctorfan17, after you finish this one project ( trench, grading, and fence ) what are your intended uses for the tractor on your 5 level acres? IMO I think you are obsessing on one project and should really be considering the many years of ownership and uses to come.

 

[trctorfan17]

Trctorfan17, after you finish this one project ( trench, grading, and fence ) what are your intended uses for the tractor on your 5 level acres? IMO I think you are obsessing on one project and should really be considering the many years of ownership and uses to come.

If I don't need it for other properties, I will sell it. I am just using it for basic landscaping and developing properties.

 

[IslandTractor]

IT, you said "I'm not suggesting you get a BX but honestly you could have had the project half finished by now in the time you've been pondering tractor choices if you'd used one."

I did spend a lot of time but it wasn't pondering tractors. I had to learn many things about TLB in general, then about the different brands then the tractor size. That was a must do anyway to avoid making a mistake buying the wrong brand or an under-powered tractor. I've heard about a lot of people going to upgrade from a smaller machine (like 1025R or BX25) to 3039R. So my point is, why waste my time buying a smaller one and then go and get a bigger one few years later?

Most of the time I spent so far was about learning different things that are very useful in the long run.

Put yourself in my shoes, JD guys tell me go for 4044R, Kubota guys tell me go for L4760, but Kioti guys tell me for CK3510.

What if my other property that I am buying soon needs a bush hog? I won't go for the standard duty cutter RC2060 that only needs 20 PTO HP...that would be a waste of my time. I would go for the medium duty RC3084 that needs 40 PTO HP. But to mow at higher speeds with 7' cutter, I need more engine HP...this way I can fly through 10 acres of mowing, okay may be take one hour to mow the 10 acres.

And yes Coyote, I never used a cutter before...but this is really like driving a car but only at 18 mph.

1) I'm not criticizing you for doing research but rather putting your project into perspective. You have maybe 5-10 hours of digging, a few days of moving and spreading dirt, a couple days of post hole digging to do. You can do that work with virtually any TLB from SCUT to full size. I would base tractor selection on what you realistically intend to do with the tractor AFTER you finish this project. This project, even for a BX25, is less than 40 engine hours of work. You will be done before your first oil change!

2) Guys on TBN almost always push for more tractor than really needed. There are folks who have been talked into 50 hp tractors to manage five acres. Same situation as soccer moms driving F250s to collect groceries. Yes, there are people who buy too small but that's usually because they haven't done any homework regarding the tasks they need to do. You don't have that issue. Your tasks are well described and multiple folks here seem to agree that those tasks don't require a large frame or high horsepower CUT/TLB. Perhaps you are thinking of future uses and might want more tractor than necessary for this current project. That's fine and appropriate. Just beware of the "more hp is better" fallacy. Too big is as bad as too small.

3) Not sure if you are joking about your mowing speed estimates. Nobody with less than 100 hp utility tractor and a 15 ft batwing mowing straight long rows of flat well groomed turf is going to mow 10 acres per hour. Mowing is typically done at about 3-4 mph. 5mph is pushing it on a CUT in anything but ideal conditions. Nobody mows at top speed in high range to get even 17 mph. You're good with numbers, do the math. Consider about 10% overlap and some loss of time turning and crunch the numbers. Consider also that six foot implements are much more common and practical than larger for most work with CUTs. In practice, ten acres can easily take half a day with a six foot mower and anywhere from 30-50 hp. Maybe longer.

 

[IslandTractor]

BTW IT, Kioti seems to have discontinued DK40, now they start with DK45, do you know why?

The DK series is essentially identical to the NX except with a tier 3 rather than tier 4 engine. The DK came in 40, 45, and 50 hp versions which were the same engine block but different stroke and bore. All natural aspiration. They also had a DS variant that had the same engine but fewer bells and whistles. None of the very successful and bulletproof older DK/DS versions are made anymore simply because of the Tier 4 requirements.

Kioti now has one turbocharged Tier 4 engine, 2 liters, that has different software settings to put out 45,50,55 or 60 hp and is used in both the NX and current DS series.

The current NX has lots of goodies just like the old DK. The current DS is a very capable but stripped down version of the NX. I've never seen the current DS series.

 

[trctorfan17]

can the backhoe KB2485 dig through asphalt driveway? the drainage pipe will have to go through driveway.

Thank you

 

[trctorfan17]

1) I'm not criticizing you for doing research but rather putting your project into perspective. You have maybe 5-10 hours of digging, a few days of moving and spreading dirt, a couple days of post hole digging to do. You can do that work with virtually any TLB from SCUT to full size. I would base tractor selection on what you realistically intend to do with the tractor AFTER you finish this project. This project, even for a BX25, is less than 40 engine hours of work. You will be done before your first oil change!

2) Guys on TBN almost always push for more tractor than really needed. There are folks who have been talked into 50 hp tractors to manage five acres. Same situation as soccer moms driving F250s to collect groceries. Yes, there are people who buy too small but that's usually because they haven't done any homework regarding the tasks they need to do. You don't have that issue. Your tasks are well described and multiple folks here seem to agree that those tasks don't require a large frame or high horsepower CUT/TLB. Perhaps you are thinking of future uses and might want more tractor than necessary for this current project. That's fine and appropriate. Just beware of the "more hp is better" fallacy. Too big is as bad as too small.

3) Not sure if you are joking about your mowing speed estimates. Nobody with less than 100 hp utility tractor and a 15 ft batwing mowing straight long rows of flat well groomed turf is going to mow 10 acres per hour. Mowing is typically done at about 3-4 mph. 5mph is pushing it on a CUT in anything but ideal conditions. Nobody mows at top speed in high range to get even 17 mph. You're good with numbers, do the math. Consider about 10% overlap and some loss of time turning and crunch the numbers. Consider also that six foot implements are much more common and practical than larger for most work with CUTs. In practice, ten acres can easily take half a day with a six foot mower and anywhere from 30-50 hp. Maybe longer.

I had no idea that mowing can only be done at 3-4 mph...too slow. Some landscapers using commercial zero turn mowers they can do a good job around 6-8 mph. I am not looking for a perfect cut. 3 mph would tae forever to mow 10 acres. can we do 9 mph at least?

future use of the tractor: either sell it in 3-5 years or use it on other properties.

 

[Coyote machine]

Words to live by!

Thanks. I try to convey what I've learned from my own and other's experience here on TBN, and in the real world of tractor use. Not always easy to get across to those who think they know it all before ever having been in a field doing actual work.:confused3::confused2:

And I'm not slamming the OP here, just saying real world is not youtube vids, though they can certainly help convey concepts; they're not the same as bucket digging actual dirt.

<snip>
And yes Coyote, I never used a cutter before...but this is really like driving a car but only at 18 mph.

A monkey could drive a car; gas/brake/steer. And could probably dig a ditch with a hoe on a tractor too. But until you actually put bucket to Earth and dig your trench, it's all theoretical.

One thing that makes it clear to me that your research is not giving you all you need to decide in your own favor is your mention of a 7 ' brush hog. Those are known to be the worst size imaginable by those in the know for SCUT/CUT use. 6' hogs are the most efficient and what my dealer told me to get for my DK-40. One needs to size the hog or box blade to be no wider than the rear wheel spread of the tractor being used.

I, sort of like you, came into the tractor world knowing very little to almost nothing about tractors. I had used one at a home I rented; the owner's tiny 'Bota, to plow the drive. I then used one at a job I had, not being familiar at all with the controls or symbols for different switches/controls, etc. In each case I muddled through.

When I finally decided I wanted to seriously look at tractors with intent to buy, I went to what I thought was my nearby Kubota dealer only to find the orange machines were called Kiotis. The owner who is in his 80s and has been selling various tractor brands since before the beginning of time, explained to me what he thought I needed based on what we discussed. I could tell he is a virtual fountain of knowledge on all things tractor, and what he doesn't know isn't worth knowing anyway. I went home having purchased a 2008 year, DK-40SE HST Kioti with KB2485 hoe attached for a LOT of $.

I didn't care at the time, I was so excited to have a tractor and finally be able able to tame Earth on my then 8 acres of mixed woods, pond, hilly terrain etc.
I quickly learned how to break things, treat the tractor like the big excavators and or a dozer that were digging 14' deep curtain drains and foundation holes for my addition and monster size barn with apartment above.
I bent the half moon supports on the KL351 loader 2 different times improperly pushing and back dragging with the tractor. I eventually decided this model did not have enough lift capacity nor strong enough loader to do what I was using it for. So I traded up and took the hit on trade to go to the DK-40. It has proven to be nearly indestructible, though that hasn't stopped me from trying to show it who's boss.

My point is, I unlike you, did essentially no research, and learned the curve the hard way that buying because drool is flowing off one's lower lip for what the kid inside one WANTS, isn't the smart money thing to do. You, on the other hand are definitely doing the research, almost to the opposite extreme, and maybe doing it to death. At some point one has to decide what seems to fit best, considering all the options AND future possible uses, then just pull the trigger.

IF you buy 10 acres later, as I expanded to 25 acres since 2009, with another house and pond and streams, etc., a DK-series sized tractor around 40 HP will likely serve your current and future needs without having to go through what I just described of my own foolishness and lack of adequate research.
Had I known about TBN before first purchase I probably would have ended up with the DK-40 first time around.

Keep in mind we're here to help you as best we can. And you're free to disregard our advice, at your own peril! After all, think of what you paid for our input- absolutely nothing!

 

[IslandTractor]

I had no idea that mowing can only be done at 3-4 mph...too slow. Some landscapers using commercial zero turn mowers they can do a good job around 6-8 mph. I am not looking for a perfect cut. 3 mph would tae forever to mow 10 acres. can we do 9 mph at least?

future use of the tractor: either sell it in 3-5 years or use it on other properties.

ZTRs are faster than CUTs on lawns. 9mph average is for practical purposes not possible with a CUT. Remember CUTs have no suspension. You'd break your teeth and butt trying to mow that fast anywhere but on a finished lawn or golf course. 2-3 acres per hour with a six foot mower is a pretty good average and you won't be able to maintain that in rough pastures.

Time to graduate from research on the interweb and go get yourself some real life experience. Rent a tractor with mower and give it a try.

 

[Coyote machine]

I had no idea that mowing can only be done at 3-4 mph...too slow. Some landscapers using commercial zero turn mowers they can do a good job around 6-8 mph. I am not looking for a perfect cut. 3 mph would tae forever to mow 10 acres. can we do 9 mph at least?

future use of the tractor: either sell it in 3-5 years or use it on other properties.

Zero turns, and I have one I'm going to get rid of: a Scag Wildcat 61" deck and bagger system are excellent on flat dry lawns. On hills, wet lawns, or anything other than near golf course terrain are virtually useless. I bought a Husky 322T AWD articulated, front Combi deck, (mulcher) and it does circles around the Scag.
Now granted some commercial grade ZTs have lowered center of gravity and other things to make ZTs better equipped to handle varied terrain, BUT an AWD mower is still hands down the go to for hilly, wet or varied situations.

High ground speed speed with a brush hog presents various dangers that the lower ground speed makes safer for the tractor operator. Hillsides and 'potholes', (gopher holes), hidden rocks or stumps, and other obstacles can and do get flung in all directions at times because of the force of the blades. AND the slip clutch found on some must be working as designed or a hidden stump or similar can result in a blown out hog gearbox or worst case a damaged PTO/tractor rear end- read very expensive.

And yes, you can rip asphalt with a tractor's hoe. Probably easiest starting at the edge and working across. The ripper tooth I showed you would work wonders on asphalt and would do the least damage width-wise, depending on how wide or not you wanted to destruct.

 

[trctorfan17]

Coyote,

What do you think of scag cheetah 72 inch commercial zero turn? or the JD Z970R 72 inch?

I am trying to choose between the two, again...5 level again with small bumps (can easily adjust deck to avoid scalping). No mulching kit as it eats up hp.

those two machine sell around 13,000. Speed is key for me, I am not looking for a perfect mow...just once a week quick around 6-8 mph...

Love to get your opinion

thank you

 

[trctorfan17]

righht now, i have JD X734 with 54 inch deck...takes forever 3 hours to mow 5 acres. X734 can go up to 8 mph.

hoping to cut time down to 1.5 hours with the 72 inch deck...nice thing about X970R is the push button to lift deck to avoid scalping or objects

 

[trctorfan17]

and instead of bagger system, you can use G6 blades...they do a great job chopping grass into smaller pieces without taking out hp and no need to bag...you won't notice. Here is the link:

2-1/2" Mower Blade 396-734 to fit John Deere

 

[trctorfan17]

wrong link in previous reply...here it is:

Oregon 396-743 Gator G6 72-Inch Mulching Blade For John Deere