Fuel Additives for Kubotas

[newbury]

I never used anything regularly, was told I didn't need anything by the dealerships. Once in a while I would get a bottle of PowerService just because, but would forget to put it in most of the time anyway.

I can only say what the service manager explained to me, because of my doubts about adding anything. He told me the tips of the injectors need at least a little lubrication that dry fuel oil don't provide. I didn't ask but I am sure the pump needs lubrication also. I told him I have some PowerService is for water mostly and he told me that just makes it more dry and more harmful.
<snip>

My BIL, my stepson, and I all own post 2009 VW Common Rail Diesels with Bosch Fuel pumps.

My stepsons pump cratered about a year ago, requiring replacement of the entire fuel system, luckily under warranty. Befoe he drove away after the repair they gave him some snake oil.

For decades there have been reasons for additives:as a biocide, to get water out, to prevent freezing. But with the advent of ULSD lubrication has become important for fuel pumps designed for European fuel which has a lower scar rating. Here's a good excerpt:

Insufficient Lubricity:

ULSD fuel lubricity is measured by measuring the scarring caused by impurities in the fuel on metallic fuel system components. The lower the lubricity, the larger the dimensions of the scars. The unit of measure used to measure such scarring is the micron. The scarring potential of fuel is tested using a device called a High Frequency Reciprocating Rig (or "HFRR"). Fresh ULSD contains no additives of any kind, though it may contain contaminates and may vary in lubricity by virtue of variances in the refining process. No station pumps raw diesel. Raw ULSD fuel can range from 900 microns to 600 microns in HFRR rating. When a refinery sells ULSD, the distributor or retailer is required to add lubricity additives sufficient to meet legally specified minimum lubricity standards. In the United States ULSD fuel (Diesel #2) legally must have an HFRR lubricity rating of 520 microns or less. But it frequently it does not meet this standard.

In one test the tester sampled retail diesel fuel from stations in 13 different states. Only 7 retailers met the legal 520 micron or better standard. 6 of the retailers provided fuel ranging from 605 microns to 845 microns(!) in HFRR rating. Yep, it looks like about half the distributors/stations in the country minimally treat or do not treat at all the raw diesel fuel the sell. There's a special place in Diesel **** for such scumbags, but I digress.

So why does the HFRR rating of the fuel matter? Because almost every consumer clean diesel vehicle sold in the United States uses a high pressure fuel pump (HPFP) manufactured by Bosch. Bosch's maximum HFRR rating for its HPFP? 460 microns or less. Houston we have a problem. Though US law permits the peddling of fuel with an HFRR rating of up to 520 microns, and about half the time US retail ULSD fuel fails to meet even this lax standard, the fuel systems in the vehicles into which this gritty fuel is going risk accelerated wear and premature, catastrophic failure of the fuel delivery system including the HPFP and injectors. Easily a $8k to $10k repair bill potential. There's a 60 micron gap between what's legally allowed in the US and what is permitted by the HPFP manufacturer.

Why do vehicle manufacturers sell vehicles in the US that have a HPFP that requires greater lubricity than our fuel provides? Europe. It's always Europe's fault. Europeans buy a lot more diesel consumer vehicles than Americans. In Europe their fuel quality regulations are much, much tighter, the enforcement much more aggressive and the penalties for violation much more severe (you get caught pushing raw diesel in Germany and you'll *wish* they sent you to Diesel ****). As a result Europeans enjoy ULSD fuel with superior lubricity (460 - hey! Just like the Bosch pump!) and Cetane (51 minimum) ratings compared to us, their poorer and more (diesel) ignorant cousins across the pond.

from here

So many modern fuel pumps require more lubricity. This may be accomplished by using biodiesel, but it needs to be done. VW has finally admitted it.

I use Opti-Lube.

 

[coldfingers]

Another power service (white bottle) guy here, use year around also.

 

[carlhwv]

Yep, blending #1 and #2 will prevent gelling. Just like adding PowerService. Blending is much more expensive. Blending also creates a fuel that produces less power. It's very noticeable in our Road Grader. So we treat rather than blend.

It is even noticeable when the stations switch to the winter blend here in MD. I saw a 3 mpg drop...20%...in my SD. Problem here is just about all if not all of the stations that sell diesel go to the blend I the Winter. Do they up your way as well? I'm guessing if you are buying off road fuel you have the option to get #2.......and I'm sure you don't use that in your truck...

 

[ovrszd]

It is even noticeable when the stations switch to the winter blend here in MD. I saw a 3 mpg drop...20%...in my SD. Problem here is just about all if not all of the stations that sell diesel go to the blend I the Winter. Do they up your way as well? I'm guessing if you are buying off road fuel you have the option to get #2.......and I'm sure you don't use that in your truck...

Yep, all stations that sell Diesel use "Winterized" fuel. How they arrive at that point is unknown. And their only concern is that it will go thru the pump nozzle and into your tank. After that, you are on your own.

I use off road in my tractors. The township also uses off road in the Grader. I treat both with Power Service to prevent Gelling.

As someone mentioned earlier, you'll only Gel fuel once.

 

[JWR]

Newbury -- You said "So many modern fuel pumps require more lubricity. This may be accomplished by using biodiesel, but it needs to be done. VW has finally admitted it."

Admitted what ? Where did they admit whatever it was -- in print, news article, notice to owners ? We own a VW TDI and have seen no admissions of anything other than outsmarting the EPA. My verb, not theirs.

 

[94BULLITT]

Yeah, that's why I've never had a fuel gel problem at temps below zero using it. Definitely isn't worth the 4 cents per gallon cost.....

How do you know PS is keeping the fuel from gelling? You could be buying a quality winter blend fuel.

What leads you to say that?

I always hear claims like this about addatives but rarely any data behind it.

Deere Dude pretty much summed up why I don't use PS. I used power service as directed in the BX and had the fuel filter ice up twice. Scooby074 on here had problems with PS. If you do some searching you will see a lot of people have had fuel gel with it, some in to real cold temps. When I switched to Stanadyne Lubrictiy formula my problems went away. If you are worried about gelling there are better products than PS.

Very recently I had my fuel pump go out on my truck and had the BIG diesel repair shop change my injectors right away also because in my year of truck injectors were noted to go out at the 150,000 mile mark quite often.

At the cash register I saw probably 100 cases of fuel additive so I asked the question we are contemplating here; what to use?

He said to use to use Standyne Lubricity Formula for my fuel. He said the fuel is so dry now that lubricity helps the injectors last longer. I asked about Power Service in the white bottle because I have a couple bottles. He told me that just makes everything drier and harder on the injectors. It if doing just the opposite of what should be done.

But I theorize that my tractors fuel tank is outside and may get some moisture in so I use Standyne Lubricity Formula for the lubricity formula but may put a little Power Service in for any water. And to change the fuel filters more often, like every 2 oil changes, especially in my truck.

For me the lubricity area is what I would be more concerned with..

I run Stanadyne Lubricty formula.

 

[JWR]

Is there anything in all this dialog legitimately unique to Kubota or are we just talking diesels in general? Maybe the real distinction (regarding lubricating qualities and costly high pressure injection pumps) is not brand but rather newer tech versus the older tech "simple" diesels.

 

[94BULLITT]

I'm talking diesels in general.

 

[Paystar]

What did you like better about Howse over PS?

It got proven to me a couple years ago. I used to haul new travel trailers commercially, and one time I was coming out of Indiana and my Powerstroke starting running bad and all the engine lights came on. I had already been running Power Service in my fuel.
Went to a Ford dealer in Coldwater, MI. and they scanned it. Said two injectors were dead but they couldn't get me in. Said I could drive it, but it will be hard on fuel and run rough.
So I stopped at a Flying J, and for whatever reason I wanted to put some more conditioner in. They had no Power Service, so I bought Howes. Put some in, got back on the highway and within a few miles the check engine lights went out and it ran perfect. It actually unstuck those two injectors. So I was sold.

So now I just buy it and haven't had a single fuel related issue in anything from my Kubota to my big truck and equipment. They also make a very good spray lube. I got a sample at a truck show and tried it.

 

[JWR]

It got proven to me a couple years ago. They had no Power Service, so I bought Howes. Put some in, got back on the highway and within a few miles the check engine lights went out and it ran perfect. It actually unstuck those two injectors. So I was sold....So now I just buy it and haven't had a single fuel related issue in anything from my Kubota to my big truck and equipment.

Understand your datapoint and that would have been positive for anyone. However, let me wonder out loud -- First thought is if an injector really is stuck (or clogged) additive in the fuel cannot get to it since there is no flow through it (unless a couple of injectors were intermittent, sometimes firing as expected and sometimes not.) Maybe when you stopped at the Flying J the heat of the engine got to those injectors, more likely the lines to the injectors, and helped get rid of the gel if it was gelled. Possibly it was not the additive. Those unknowns are why I call additive "tiger repellent" having seen no tigers for a long time. It is hard to be sure and every long-term user builds confidence in a product -- the longer time goes on with no problems the greater likelihood it really is the additive.

 

[VTForester]

New member here but this thread jumped out at me, 1st post.

A large part of my job is oversight on all aspects of a fuel quality program for a national oil & gas distributor. We maintain fuel quality in several hundred high horsepower standby generators ranging from a couple of hundred KW to 3MW and larger. Units ranging in age from 10-12 years old to brand new 3000hp tier IV units. There isn't much more critical a system than a Tier IV 2MW generator sitting at a hospital so we make a point of keeping up with changes in fuel and engine tech.

Cold weather operation for Diesel engines is an inexact science. Every batch of diesel that comes out of a refinery is slightly different in how it reacts to additives and its natural cold weather operability. Generally speaking the major brands like PowerService and Howse do work but I would use them at double the label dosage to expect real reliability. We use a manufacturer called Primrose Oil but they are an industrial specific additive and not generally available on the shelf as package goods.

All of the old tricks for winterizing diesel like blending in #1, blending in Kero, etc do work. But I would never use them on a Tier rated engine and they will be death to the aftertreatment systems on a Tier 4 rated engine very quickly. No legitimate fuel distributor should be blending #1 or kero in anymore. period.

I saw lubricity mentioned...That was a concern for a short period of time after Sulfur content was dropped to 15ppm. Today though, most Diesel has a small amount of biodiesel blended in (up to 5%). Just about the only good thing about bio from a fuel chemistry standpoint is that it is slick as ****. just 2-5% bio adds back all of the lubricity lost with the sulfur reduction. That doesn't mean I would go looking for B20 for your engines, at that high a concentration the bio brings other problems like affinity for water and a solvent characteristic.

Another thing to note, while "gelling" is the term that has been around for decades it really isn't as big a problem as it used to be. Today's ULSD has such a tendency to collect entrained water that icing usually happens first. If you are shopping for an additive, look for one that addresses icing, dang near all of them will work against gelling.

 

[ovrszd]

Welcome to TBN.

Very informative post!!!!

So here's pics from my jug of Power Service (white jug). Whatcha think?

 

[sandyc]

Use power service all year. No problems!

 

[msb1766]

I use Power Service White bottle in the Winter and the Gray bottle in the summer.

 

[rScotty]

New member here but this thread jumped out at me, 1st post.

A large part of my job is oversight on all aspects of a fuel quality program for a national oil & gas distributor.
"SNIP"
All of the old tricks for winterizing diesel like blending in #1, blending in Kero, etc do work. But I would never use them on a Tier rated engine and they will be death to the aftertreatment systems on a Tier 4 rated engine very quickly. No legitimate fuel distributor should be blending #1 or kero in anymore. period.
"SNIP"
I saw lubricity mentioned...That was a concern for a short period of time after Sulfur content was dropped to 15ppm. Today though, most Diesel has a small amount of biodiesel blended in (up to 5%). ... just 2-5% bio adds back all of the lubricity lost with the sulfur reduction. That doesn't mean I would go looking for B20 for your engines, at that high a concentration the bio brings other problems like affinity for water and a solvent characteristic.

Another thing to note, while "gelling" is the term that has been around for decades it really isn't as big a problem as it used to be. Today's ULSD has such a tendency to collect entrained water that icing usually happens first. If you are shopping for an additive, look for one that addresses icing, dang near all of them will work against gelling.

Thank you VTForester for that really professional summary of diesel fuel additives, water, B-fuel, and gelling.
Things sure have changed from 20 years ago when most distributors simply mixed enough #1 diesel with the more common #2 to make a more expensive winter blend. And there's even a change from ten years ago when ULSD and lubricity were the main concerns.

For the last decade I've been adding Opti-Lube XPD for lubricity and John Deere TY26788 for moisture control and anti-gellng. My machines are pre Tier IV, and I live where -30 F or colder does happen....so I have more options and will sometimes add 20% kerosene to the winter fuels mix for the coldest months.
rScotty

 

[Paystar]

Understand your datapoint and that would have been positive for anyone. However, let me wonder out loud -- First thought is if an injector really is stuck (or clogged) additive in the fuel cannot get to it since there is no flow through it (unless a couple of injectors were intermittent, sometimes firing as expected and sometimes not.) Maybe when you stopped at the Flying J the heat of the engine got to those injectors, more likely the lines to the injectors, and helped get rid of the gel if it was gelled. Possibly it was not the additive. Those unknowns are why I call additive "tiger repellent" having seen no tigers for a long time. It is hard to be sure and every long-term user builds confidence in a product -- the longer time goes on with no problems the greater likelihood it really is the additive.

Could have been coincidence JWR.....but it worked to make me a customer, LOL. And I've never had a fuel related issue.

And when I used Power Service in my ACERT Cat.....one day the service manager at Toromont Cat gave me a bottle of Caterpillar fuel conditioner and I was amazed at how much more throttle response it gave me. So it was good stuff too, but not cheap.
He said it best...."I'm like a drug dealer, I'll give you the first bottle free, and you'll be back, LOL."

 

[JWR]

Yup. Understand that. We need a "like" button on this TBN instead of only being able to reply.

 

[carlhwv]

VTForester. Welcome aboard and thanks for the info.

 

[VTForester]

Welcome to TBN.

Very informative post!!!!

So here's pics from my jug of Power Service (white jug). Whatcha think?

Power Service is a good product. If I didn't have easy and cheap access to industrial grade additives it is what I would buy off the shelf.

I could go on and on about the various issues with Diesel fuel but it boils down to using an appropriate additive (Like PS) to stabilize and winterize and keep it dry. ULSD(15ppm) loves water, much worse than LSD (500ppm) did and it comes out of the refinery with a higher water content too. I would strongly suggest treating year round and absolutely treat if you have a bulk tank or drum sitting at home to fuel your equipment off of. One thing to be aware of though, if you know you have water separated and sitting on the bottom of your fuel tank. DO NOT use any additive until the water has been removed. Any water dispersant additive will cause the fuel to "soak up" the water on the tank bottom and you will make matters worse for yourself.

 

[ovrszd]

Power Service is a good product. If I didn't have easy and cheap access to industrial grade additives it is what I would buy off the shelf.

I could go on and on about the various issues with Diesel fuel but it boils down to using an appropriate additive (Like PS) to stabilize and winterize and keep it dry. ULSD(15ppm) loves water, much worse than LSD (500ppm) did and it comes out of the refinery with a higher water content too. I would strongly suggest treating year round and absolutely treat if you have a bulk tank or drum sitting at home to fuel your equipment off of. One thing to be aware of though, if you know you have water separated and sitting on the bottom of your fuel tank. DO NOT use any additive until the water has been removed. Any water dispersant additive will cause the fuel to "soak up" the water on the tank bottom and you will make matters worse for yourself.

I have read that before. Thanks again for excellent advice.