Will this be tomorrow's transportation?

[MossRoad]

Red October!

 

[buickanddeere]

Where is the compressor on a submarine?? They may just have a storage tank that's filled in port!

Seems on excersise's them fuel cell subs are hard to find despite that noisy compressor. And then there's rumours the nuclear powered types need pumps for heat dissipation.

Now I surely know little about fuel cells or submarines but your comments indicate your in the same position!

A diesel sub not operating gas compressors will be quieter than a diesel sub operating compressors. Any diesel sub rigged for quiet running will be quieter than a nuc sub even with the reactor scrammed. That reactor core has a lot of decay heat to dissipate even if on convection cooling. The stored hydrogen and oxygen used in the fuel cells when operating below the surface has to be replaced. Hence burning diesel to operate a generator to power the Electrolysis process , compress the gasses and cool the gasses.

 

[Redneck in training]

Do you think there will be a "new" way to store hydrogen ?
Thermal power plants creating hydrogen or supplying power to charge batteries is not an advantage.
Where are you going to find the energy storage density to power plains, trains and automobiles for more than 1-2 hours at a time then spend 5+ hours for a full charge without over heating the battery pack?

I am just saying that electric motor powered by battery converts more BTUs from the primary fuel be it coal, NG, crude oil etc than ICE to mechanical power.
I intend to buy an electric car. I figured that we could drive the same amount of miles for about 15% of gasoline cost at the worst case. Saving $280/month and another 140-160/year for no oil changes.

 

[Egon]

Red October!

In real life English Sub stealing towed array from Foreign Sub while both are underway.

 

[Egon]

A diesel sub not operating gas compressors will be quieter than a diesel sub operating compressors. Any diesel sub rigged for quiet running will be quieter than a nuc sub even with the reactor scrammed. That reactor core has a lot of decay heat to dissipate even if on convection cooling. The stored hydrogen and oxygen used in the fuel cells when operating below the surface has to be replaced. Hence burning diesel to operate a generator to power the Electrolysis process , compress the gasses and cool the gasses.

Indications are that the Sub's refuel when in port. No hydrogen production on board. Hydrogen is stored in external tanks to separate from Crew's Quarters.

 

[buickanddeere]

Indications are that the Sub's refuel when in port. No hydrogen production on board. Hydrogen is stored in external tanks to separate from Crew's Quarters.

What is the sub supposed to use for power when below snorkle depth when the H2 and O2 tanks are empty? A fuel cell sub would only be useful for patrol around a country's own domestic coast within the sight of land. A diesel/battery sub can recharge anywhere and go anywhere.

 

[Egon]

What is the sub supposed to use for power when below snorkle depth when the H2 and O2 tanks are empty? A fuel cell sub would only be useful for patrol around a country's own domestic coast within the sight of land. A diesel/battery sub can recharge anywhere and go anywhere.

Go read the information. Try & educate yourself! It'll open up whole new worlds for you.

Shift work can dull the mind it is said!

 

[dickfoster]

That's actually not the case, power plants can get better efficiency because they have a couple things that work in their favor vs internal combustion engines.

The biggest issue is waste heat, in a car you have to dump it via your radiator. However in a power plant they can have a massive heat exchanger that can capture it and use it to generate more power. Conservation of energy means that your car cannot be as efficient as a power plant that captures heat(fun fact 1 gallon of gas has ~33.4kWh so most EVs run on 1-3 gallons of gas to 100-300 miles).

Secondly cars need to work across a wide range of power bands, however a generator can sit at a single RPM and optimize for that specific band. So you'll lose some power due having a requirement to function at different speeds.

Those two things combined mean that quite a few plants exceed 50% efficiency where cars top out around 35%.

Also we have a ton of hydro up here in the PNW so we already have a nice source of cheap clean energy .

Not really. Check your numbers again. A fossil fuels power plant runs about the same efficiency as a modern EFI car burning fossil fuel. Then don't forget to account for the transmission and all of the conversion losses of which there are several that turns into waste heat and gets nothing done. Remember the end goal is to move X amount of weight Y distance at Z speed. If you ran a business that way you'd be broke within the first year. Kinda like the mentality of saving money buy buying stuff on sale for stuff that not needed and saving yourself right into bankruptcy. Begin at the beginning and end at the end accounting for everything in between. It's the only real way to access the overall efficiency of anything.

 

[Redneck in training]

The total efficiency of the energy chain is complicated. Lets look, in example at NG. It takes energy to drill the hole in ground, process it in the gas plant (separate all gasses from the mixture so only methane is left), compress it to the pipeline pressure (1200 psi/74 bar), boost the pressure every 70-80 miles, burn it in the gas turbine (about 30% efficiency at rated load), recover some of the heat to generate steam that powers a steam turbine increasing efficiency of the generator to close 70%. If you add energy used to make the pipes, turbines, compressors and all the equipment used the numbers of total energy efficiency will be even lower.
It takes more complicated equipment and more energy to produce gasoline and diesel.
In other words ICE would convert to mechanical power (and that just my guess) perhaps only 10 % of the energy originally in the hydrocarbon used to produce the fuel.
Which ever way you look at it electric car beats the ICE in total efficiency hands down. Moreover electricity can be generated from water, wind, solar, geothermal, biogas etc. Needless to say that it will take more time and development for electric cars to be as practical and convenient as ICE powered cars. The latest models of electric cars are approaching range long enough to be practical. If the cost of the fuel rises again the acceptance of the electric cars will only accelerate.

 

[the old grind]

... Kinda like the mentality of saving money buy buying stuff on sale for stuff that not needed and saving yourself right into bankruptcy...

What? 'Somebody' () really doesn't care if we 'save' the economy too ... the Modern American Way.

This new kind of green 'Hope and Change' is getting more complicated by the day. "You have to believe."

 

[buickanddeere]

Electric cars, electric trucks, electric field tractors and electric airplanes won't work for extended periods of time becuase the energy storage is not dense enough.

 

[Egon]

Electric cars, electric trucks, electric field tractors and electric airplanes won't work for extended periods of time becuase the energy storage is not dense enough.

Diesel fuel tank -- hydrogen fuel tank

Each fill their respective prime movers as required. Each bulk tank is refuelled as required.

Both the diesel and the hydrogen would have comparable fuel delivery systems, just use different fuel.

 

[MossRoad]

8 Things You Need To Know About Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Cars | Edmunds.com

 

[Egon]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Redneck in training]

Electric cars, electric trucks, electric field tractors and electric airplanes won't work for extended periods of time becuase the energy storage is not dense enough.

If the car can make 200 miles/charge it will work for me. Our round trip to the town is about 100-120 miles three times a week. So green or not green it makes financial sense for us.

 

[buickanddeere]

Diesel fuel tank -- hydrogen fuel tank

Each fill their respective prime movers as required. Each bulk tank is refuelled as required.

Both the diesel and the hydrogen would have comparable fuel delivery systems, just use different fuel.

Now the weight , cost and complexity of multiple fuel systems. Even that super duper fuel cell 212 submarine counts on lead acid batteries to move faster than trolling speed.

 

[buickanddeere]

If the car can make 200 miles/charge it will work for me. Our round trip to the town is about 100-120 miles three times a week. So green or not green it makes financial sense for us.

Compare a new Chevy Sonic with ICE with the Sonic they call a Bolt that is battery powered. What is the difference in up front purchase price plus a level 2 charger. How much is saved over 5 to 8 years. Don't want to keep the electric past the end of factory warrenty. What is the trade value of the Sonic and the Bolt at the end of 5 or 8 years ?

 

[Egon]

Now the weight , cost and complexity of multiple fuel systems. Even that super duper fuel cell 212 submarine counts on lead acid batteries to move faster than trolling speed.

Yup; your right on the batteries but well misinformed on the rest.

 

[turnkey4099]

Compare a new Chevy Sonic with ICE with the Sonic they call a Bolt that is battery powered. What is the difference in up front purchase price plus a level 2 charger. How much is saved over 5 to 8 years. Don't want to keep the electric past the end of factory warrenty. What is the trade value of the Sonic and the Bolt at the end of 5 or 8 years ?

Electric is out for me. Looked good but the pay back period would be after I am long in the grund (81 now). I could get by with an electric for all my driving (rent a car for long trips) but I only do abut 5-6,000 miles a year. The pay back just isn't there. Sure would be nice passign all those gas stations with high prices though.