Energy storage, cheap and low tech.

[SPYDERLK]

I'm sorry, my 30kW quote was from an earlier version of the Prius. Here's the latest version.

WRONG. 50 KW Prius : 76HP X 746W/HP = 56.7KW Engine power. Youre going to have to use every bit of that to get 50KW electrical output. It would take a 76HP tractor engine to produce that at 2000rpm.

I think we are mostly on the same page when talking about the output of the hybrid vehicle. Using your formula in reverse while ignoring losses, 50,000 / 746 = 67 HP. Is there some reason that you believe that the 134 HP Prius engine can't develop 67 HP at 2,000 RPM? Thats 50% of its maximum gas engine output.

In reality, you would only need 10 to 15 kW to backup power a house. That's probably less than 20 HP.

You have apparently invented a new page. The EngineHP you initially gave by excerpt/link is 76HP.

 

[buickanddeere]

Dick Foster and Spiderlink's answer are bang on.

 

[Egon]

Better not get in the way of a Tesla.

The joys of max torque at zero rpm!

 

[Garandman]

Tesla has a house battery, but I think it's more for backup than full-time use with a PV system. But it's a start. Powerwall | The Tesla Home Battery

"Batteries suck."
Elon Musk

I don't know if I'll ever own one, but did you know that a Prius or any other hybrid can be used as a standby generator for your house with a simple kit?

Prius has a 30kW generator.

The better ones start and stop the engine as needed to maintain the charge. Quiet too!

Tech-Savvy Prius Owner Uses Hybrid To Power House During Snow Storm

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/automobiles/02POWER.html

 

[orezok]

You have apparently invented a new page. The EngineHP you initially gave by excerpt/link is 76HP.

My original posted information was for the early version of the Prius with the 30kW motor/generator. My graph so indicated . OTHERS invented a new page quoting the newer 50kW Prius and I responed to their posts. Sorry.

 

[buickanddeere]

The joys of max torque at zero rpm!

Max torque at zero rpm = zero HP and zero work achieved.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Max torque at zero rpm = zero HP and zero work achieved.

,,,,,,,,,,All fixed if it starts to move.

 

[newbury]

My original posted information was for the early version of the Prius with the 30kW motor/generator. My graph so indicated . OTHERS invented a new page quoting the newer 50kW Prius and I responed to their posts. Sorry.

There is a short 530+ message thread over on Priuschat.

From my reading of that thread you would be putting your Prius in danger if you hook up directly to the "traction battery". What almost everyone is doing is running their converters off the 12V battery and drawing up to 5 KW max. I've yet to find any reference where I could relatively easily hook a Prius up to the house and expect to be able to pull 30KW off it so I could run my welder and cook a turkey in my electric oven.
The main advantage of the Prius as a 3 to 5KW generator is that it automatically starts the engine, charges up the traction battery, which charges up the 12V battery, which is hooked to some form of plug out kit.

Basically an autostart generator attached to a battery bank.

/edit
Here's a response to my request for being able to pull even 15KW off a Prius:

With the proper conversion equipment you will be safely maxing 6KW of pure AC power with out incurring in any damage to the Prius.

So although the ENGINE may be rated a XXHP/KW it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

 

[dickfoster]

Better not get in the way of a Tesla.

You mean if it's running or sitting on the side of the road with dead batteries. LOL One thing's for sure, he ain't gonna chase me very far.

 

[orezok]

You mean if it's running or sitting on the side of the road with dead batteries. LOL One thing's for sure, he ain't gonna chase me very far.

Oh, I don't know about that... The top Tesla range is about 300 miles!

 

[SPYDERLK]

Well, your first post mentions a simple kit and implies that you can make a 30,000W generator to run a house with a simple kit.

That graphic you show for the 30,000w Prius is the 2000 RPMs of the generator to produce 30,000W. How many RPMs does the gas engine have to turn to produce that much power??? 5000 RPMS. Here's the source.
Prius Specifications

There is a short 530+ message thread over on Priuschat.

From my reading of that thread you would be putting your Prius in danger if you hook up directly to the "traction battery". What almost everyone is doing is running their converters off the 12V battery and drawing up to 5 KW max. I've yet to find any reference where I could relatively easily hook a Prius up to the house and expect to be able to pull 30KW off it so I could run my welder and cook a turkey in my electric oven.
The main advantage of the Prius as a 3 to 5KW generator is that it automatically starts the engine, charges up the traction battery, which charges up the 12V battery, which is hooked to some form of plug out kit.

Basically an autostart generator attached to a battery bank.

/edit
Here's a response to my request for being able to pull even 15KW off a Prius:

So although the ENGINE may be rated a XXHP/KW it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

OK. Im not buying anywhere near as low as 6KW limit. ... If you review the Prius spec link provided by MossRoad above youll find the traction batt peak rating to be 21 or 27 kW depending on model. Reduce this by half and you still have more than 10kW available to pull thru a sine inverter at 1/2 batt rating. And thats NOT counting the active charge available to the batt with engine on line. All thats needed is the appropriate electronic interface to "task" the composite hybrid system and ultimately to go from 200VDC to 240 60HZ w neutral.

 

[buickanddeere]

Oh, I don't know about that... The top Tesla range is about 300 miles!

Under ideal conditions . Steady state 50mph, no heat and no AC . Windows rolled up . Tires inflated to max . Now try the same vehicle in stop and start traffic with the AC or heater on.
Going 50% larger on the battery will not add 50% more range .

 

[newbury]

OK. Im not buying anywhere near as low as 6KW limit. ... If you review the Prius spec link provided by MossRoad above youll find the traction batt peak rating to be 21 or 27 kW depending on model. Reduce this by half and you still have more than 10kW available to pull thru a sine inverter at 1/2 batt rating. And thats NOT counting the active charge available to the batt with engine on line. All thats needed is the appropriate electronic interface to "task" the composite hybrid system and ultimately to go from 200VDC to 240 60HZ w neutral.

Well research and report back on someone who is doing it with a stationary Prius hooked up to their house. One of the comments was that the battery system required significant cooling at near maximum output which was only achieved by air flow at speed.

But I note we've gone from claims of 67 KW down to 10KW. A 67 KW generator might power 6 moderate houses, a 10KW one moderate house. The commercial 5KW unit that started this branch of the thread

I don't know if I'll ever own one, but did you know that a Prius or any other hybrid can be used as a standby generator for your house with a simple kit?

Prius has a 30kW generator.

The better ones start and stop the engine as needed to maintain the charge. Quiet too!

ok- this is the largest i could find, still i am impressed

Plug-Out Island kit Prius 5kva 24/12-6hz psw: Home

still sounds pretty good for $2,400 IF you have a Prius so you have the battery bank.

 

[dickfoster]

Under ideal conditions . Steady state 50mph, no heat and no AC . Windows rolled up . Tires inflated to max . Now try the same vehicle in stop and start traffic with the AC or heater on.
Going 50% larger on the battery will not add 50% more range .

Well since he lives in Mojave I don't think he's likely to roll up the windows and turn the AC off. LOL It gets kinda warmish there. Unless it's night, then it's freezing and the wind is blowing hard, cold and fast so maybe he can put up a sail. It's a hellish place to camp.

 

[buickanddeere]

Well since he lives in Mojave I don't think he's likely to roll up the windows and turn the AC off. LOL It gets kinda warmish there. Unless it's night, then it's freezing and the wind is blowing hard, cold and fast so maybe he can put up a sail. It's a hellish place to camp.

The topic was how to achieve greater than real world typical "mileage" from the Tesla.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Well, your first post mentions a simple kit and implies that you can make a 30,000W generator to run a house with a simple kit.

That graphic you show for the 30,000w Prius is the 2000 RPMs of the generator to produce 30,000W. How many RPMs does the gas engine have to turn to produce that much power??? 5000 RPMS. Here's the source.
Prius Specifications

There is a short 530+ message thread over on Priuschat.

From my reading of that thread you would be putting your Prius in danger if you hook up directly to the "traction battery". What almost everyone is doing is running their converters off the 12V battery and drawing up to 5 KW max. I've yet to find any reference where I could relatively easily hook a Prius up to the house and expect to be able to pull 30KW off it so I could run my welder and cook a turkey in my electric oven.
The main advantage of the Prius as a 3 to 5KW generator is that it automatically starts the engine, charges up the traction battery, which charges up the 12V battery, which is hooked to some form of plug out kit.

Basically an autostart generator attached to a battery bank.

/edit
Here's a response to my request for being able to pull even 15KW off a Prius:

So although the ENGINE may be rated a XXHP/KW it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

OK. Im not buying anywhere near as low as 6KW limit. ... If you review the Prius spec link provided by MossRoad above youll find the traction batt peak rating to be 21 or 27 kW depending on model. Reduce this by half and you still have more than 10kW available to pull thru a sine inverter at 1/2 batt rating. And thats NOT counting the active charge available to the batt with engine on line. All thats needed is the appropriate electronic interface to "task" the composite hybrid system and ultimately to go from 200VDC to 240 60HZ w neutral.

Well research and report back on someone who is doing it with a stationary Prius hooked up to their house. One of the comments was that the battery system required significant cooling at near maximum output which was only achieved by air flow at speed.

But I note we've gone from claims of 67 KW down to 10KW. A 67 KW generator might power 6 moderate houses, a 10KW one moderate house. The commercial 5KW unit that started this branch of the thread



still sounds pretty good for $2,400 IF you have a Prius so you have the battery bank.

Those high claims were wrong and based on confusion in separating the mechanical and electrical power. I didnt make them - nor did I make a claim for 10kW as you can see from my actual quote. In actuality, from the spec link, 21 or 27kw of batt power is available for use in brief periods of high acceleration. Note that this is Power not Energy. The question is how much generator power is available? Power available from the motors is 50 or 60 kW respectively. Obviously the traction batt cannot feed all of it. The remainder -- 29 or 33kW -- must come from using a portion of engine power via the generator. ... So the gen in each case is around 30kW capacity [at minimum] to make up the [21 : 50] or [27 : 60] differences between batt peak and motor electrical capacity.

... So again, there you have it. A ~30kW gen with at least 21 kW backup by the traction batt. That means there can be 30 kW electrical power available continuously with the system holding solid. Short term electrical overloads up to 51^+ kW will draw the excess from the traction batt, but there must afterward be a period of lower than 30kW electrical load if the trac batt is to be returned to full charge.

,,,,,, Cooling can be handled by fans. Hookup to house could be a simple #1 AWG pair taking 200VDC to a house mounted True Sine invertor.

Im not going to research it. You will see it happen. Probably by Toyota since they are best equipped to interface their system compatibly.

,,,,It will surely cost more than $2400.

 

[RalphVa]

Pumping water up into a reservoir or compressing air seem A LOT less complicated than building train track, train, etc. Or just raise a bunch of weights on pulleys and release them later.

Ralph

 

[newbury]

Pumping water up into a reservoir or compressing air seem A LOT less complicated than building train track, train, etc. Or just raise a bunch of weights on pulleys and release them later.

Ralph

Some of these "proposals" may just be because people like to suck up research dollars.

 

[orezok]

Well since he lives in Mojave I don't think he's likely to roll up the windows and turn the AC off. LOL It gets kinda warmish there. Unless it's night, then it's freezing and the wind is blowing hard, cold and fast so maybe he can put up a sail. It's a hellish place to camp.

I don't own a Tesla, and I seriously doubt that you will be down here chasing one. More likely you will be chasing one in Nevada City that will be in the 50's today. No need for A/C or heat! Hope you can catch him before you run out of GAS :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Yup...Mojave desert, come for the wind, stay for the heat!

 

[buickanddeere]

Pumping water up into a reservoir or compressing air seem A LOT less complicated than building train track, train, etc. Or just raise a bunch of weights on pulleys and release them later.

Ralph

Where is it possible to obtain enough water, a large enough reservoir and enough reservoir height ?
Please calculate how many pounds that would have to travel a vertical height to store 1 MW/hr .