Buying Advice CUT buying advice

[AustinOX]

I'm reposting some of this from the LS forum for reasons that will become apparent at the end. I apologize in advance for the length, but most responses to "what should I buy" posts I've read ask for more detail.

First, usage:
I have 12 acres of neglected land in Central FL. It's divided into three sections (not including the average-ish front and backyard). Two are overgrown pastures with scattered trees, and the third is relatively natural Florida woods. The natural area floods regularly thanks to a nearby creek, and much of it stays soft year round. There are a couple dozen down trees and logs, with plenty more that likely should come down and dozens that need trimmed. Long term plans are to have the pastures maintained for livestock and eventually a horse or two. The pastures are low, and soft during rainy season. Some grading and filling will need to be done before we get any large animals. I'll keep the third section pretty natural, but I want to clean it up and bush hog maybe bi-monthly. The other frequent tractor job will be maintaining a long gravel driveway that is built up on clay and currently full of potholes.

I've never owned, or even driven a tractor. From what I've read I definitely need 4wd, and while hydros are preferred for loader work, gear transmissions are better for mowing if you don't have cruise. I expect to be mowing quite a bit more than loading, and I own a manual car by choice. I've only been considering tractors with at least 25 pto hp until today. I want this to be a 25+ year purchase, and have a building for storage.

My neighbor has bush-hogged my property with a late model JD 3032E and a 6' cutter. I talked to him the other day and he said he wouldn't get the JD if he was to do it over. He's not happy with the lift capacity and lack of rear remotes. So far the 3032E is the best priced package that meets my minimum requirements at $18,300 with loader and 5' frontier cutter (at 0%), but I'm a buy once, cry once kind of guy these days. Just adding rear remotes and going to the 6' cutter is another $2k on that JD, and upgrading to the 3038e is $3k more. The 3038e doesn't add any hydraulic advantage.

I considered the pre-tier 4 LS G series, but just read that manufacturers are only required to support pre tier 4 tractors for 5 more years. I don't trust that a pre tier 4 LS will be fully supported in 15+ years. If I must buy tier 4, I think I want to stick with JD or Kubota for confidence in R&D and engineering, and easiest/closest dealer support.

I visited the Kubota dealer today and was quoted over $23k for the same package as the JD in an L3301 with hydro, loader and 5' bush hog. The Kubota looked and felt like the superior machine in every respect, but not $5k superior for homeowner use, and I'd really prefer to cap this purchase at $20k. When I explained this to the salesman, along with my general distaste for the tier 4 complications, he suggested the L2501- specifically the DT version to keep up PTO hp and keep down cost. He told me that the engine was simply a tuned down version of the L3301 that could be easily adjusted for more power after the warranty expires. After some research its clear that it isn't that simple, but a tier 4 compliant Kubota diesel that doesn't need DEF, regen, or a complicated ECU and operates at 80% of its ability sure sounds like it would last 25 years. I've read a number of reviews praising the torque, and indicating that it runs 5' implements without issue despite being under the hp rule of thumb.

So the JD is cheaper, literally and figuratively, with more hp, possibly more convenience with hydro, and a longer warranty.

The Kubota has a simpler engine, is heavier, has more breakout force, and just feels like a machine that will be perfectly serviceable in 25 years.

Opinions?

 

[gladehound]

I would choose weight and loader breakout over hp any day.

 

[jeff9366]

I would choose weight and loader breakout over horsepower any day.

Consider your first tractor a "learner". You can sell a <600 hour Kubota or Deere for $10 per hour in depreciation cost. After 300 to 600 hours you will have a real world idea of your needs. Maybe, just MAYBE, your first tractor will fill all your needs.

Kubota and Deere are renowned for parts availability. You will be able to get parts for any Kubota or Deere bought new today for 50 years.

Suwannee River Kubota (Greg Leggett/Allen Byrd) is a very fine Kubota dealer just north of Chiefland on Highway 19.

Kubota is selling a lot of the L2501 model. It would make a good 'first' tractor. An L2501 will certainly "I want to clean it up and bush hog bi-monthly. The other tractor job will be maintaining a long gravel driveway built up on clay and currently full of potholes", but a little slowly. Marginal power/weight (19/PTO - HP) to satisfactorily operate a post hole auger for fencing, in any but soft ground.

If you post your specific location in your profile, myself or some other central Florida TBN correspondent may know where a good used tractor is located near you. It happens. (Reads like you are in the Waccasassa Flats.)

Consider the LS XR3037 series. This series comes with EVERYTHING standard. There is an LS dealer in Ocala.

Dealer support is important for new tractor operators.


HST Vs Gear from the archive: https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=hst+vs+gear+transmission

 

[GManBart]

I've never owned, or even driven a tractor. From what I've read I definitely need 4wd, and while hydros are preferred for loader work, gear transmissions are better for mowing if you don't have cruise. I expect to be mowing quite a bit more than loading, and I own a manual car by choice.

No way, no how. A gear tractor is better for ground-engaging implements (like plows) because less engine power is lost to the transmission, and every little bit counts there. For mowing with either a brush hog or finish mower, an HST setup will be faster, more precise and actually safer (let off the pedal, the machine stops). You can speed up when the brush is thinner, slow down when the brush is thicker, etc, and never mess with the throttle, or have to change gears (the engine is set at PTO speed)...just push the pedal more or less according to conditions. An HST is also better at loader work, but that's not the only area where they are better. This coming from someone who doesn't own a single HST machine now, but have in the past.

I considered the pre-tier 4 LS G series, but just read that manufacturers are only required to support pre tier 4 tractors for 5 more years. I don't trust that a pre tier 4 LS will be fully supported in 15+ years. If I must buy tier 4, I think I want to stick with JD or Kubota for confidence in R&D and engineering, and easiest/closest dealer support.

What models were you considering that had pre-tier 4 engines? Pre-tier 4 LS engines were predominantly Mitsubishi engines that are so incredibly common that there's virtually no chance they won't be supported long after most of us here are long gone...they're in all kinds of machines. LS Tier-4 stuff has been mostly Shibaura (although I thought the newer models were going back to a Mitsubishi design made under license by LS) who has made so many tractor engines, for so many years, it's hard to imagine Deere, or Kubota being any significant amount better.

 

[Kubota 2350]

With the warranty JD is offering, and their quality, it's a win, win.

Your money, .your choice

 

[jaydee325]

The emission standards are very confusing. They differ greatly for on road, off road, marine, and stationary uses.

My current research indicates that in off road equipment applications, there never were Tier 3 engines in the less than 75 hp range.

Here is a link that shows the various Tier levels.

There is even misinformation coming from the manufacturers that further confuse things. Case in point, my LS R3039H sales brochure shows the 39.5hp Mitsubishi engine as Tier 3. I looked up the engine on Mitsubishi engine website and it clearly shows the engine as Tier 4 Interim.

My opinion is, the LS model the OP looked at is probably Tier 4 interim and not "pre tier 4".

I agree with the suggestion that if interested in an LS, go with one of the XR models. Way more features than the G models.

I've found much misinformation on emissions on TBN.

 

[jeff9366]

For me, after 600 hours, Tier IV has meant park after every 60 engine hours and regen for 16 minutes. No Big Deal.

Price I paid for the new model L3560 was significantly higher than its predecessor, the L3540.

 

[TripleR]

May be off-point, but in my personal experience as well as posts on two tractor forums, more often than not when someone with limited experiences buys "just enough" tractor for his chores, he will be trading it in for a different machine or be stuck using a tractor they really don't like.

Secondly, I would never recommend a new user to go with gears over HST for general use not clearly indicating the need for gears, we own more geared units than HST and sure won't be getting rid of any of them, just too darned handy.

 

[RollingsFarms]

Unless you're going to look at the LS model, it would be the Kubota 2501 all day long for me and 10 times on Sunday. I made the same comparison as you're making right now and while that price on the Deere might seem enticing, you should be aware of how many corners they cut on those tractors. I'm a Deere guy too, have several sitting out in my barn right now. Sorry but they went too cheap on the 3e series.

 

[motownbrowne]

If I was buying one of those machines, I'd pick the 2501 Kubota with the HST. Personal preference, I suppose, but I've been very pleased with my orange machine. It might have less ponies than the JD, but unless you are in a big hurry, it'll get the job done just the same. Extra weight and lift capacity is a big plus to me.

 

[newbury]

<snip>
First, usage:
I have 12 acres of neglected land in Central FL. It's divided into three sections (not including the average-ish front and backyard). Two are overgrown pastures with scattered trees, and the third is relatively natural Florida woods. The natural area floods regularly thanks to a nearby creek, and much of it stays soft year round. There are a couple dozen down trees and logs, with plenty more that likely should come down and dozens that need trimmed. Long term plans are to have the pastures maintained for livestock and eventually a horse or two. The pastures are low, and soft during rainy season. Some grading and filling will need to be done before we get any large animals. I'll keep the third section pretty natural, but I want to clean it up and bush hog maybe bi-monthly. The other frequent tractor job will be maintaining a long gravel driveway that is built up on clay and currently full of potholes.<snip>
Opinions?

We all have opinions. My first is that you've laid out your needs, experience and budget very well.

I would choose weight and loader breakout over horsepower any day.

Consider your first tractor a "learner". You can sell a <600 hour Kubota or Deere for $10 per hour in depreciation cost. After 300 to 600 hours you will have a real world idea of your needs. Maybe, just MAYBE, your first tractor will fill all your needs.
<snip>
Kubota is selling a lot of the L2501 model. It would make a good 'first' tractor. An L2501 will certainly "I want to clean it up and bush hog bi-monthly. The other tractor job will be maintaining a long gravel driveway built up on clay and currently full of potholes", but a little slowly. Barely enough power/weight to satisfactorily operate a post hole auger in soft ground for fencing.<snip>

I agree with most of your post jeff except the

Barely enough power/weight to satisfactorily operate a post hole auger in soft ground for fencing.

My B7610 runs my PHD fine, even in moderate to heavy clay.

OP - I'd strongly advise you to go for a little more HP, at least 30 engine, 25 PTO. If you have any wrenching skills to do occasional maintenance like replacing hydraulic hoses, filter changes etc. a used tractor might be a good choice. Especially at this time of year.
Also view this as possibly your FIRST tractor, they go better in pairs

 

[AustinOX]

Thanks for all of the replies. I think I need to prioritize the HST and not look at it as a wash. Our property is no where near square, with some tight spots along the property lines and driveway fencing. I intend to put in a small berm sooner than later. I also didn't realize that I'd lose the live PTO with the DT transmission. It would put me right at $20k according to the add-on price I was told compared to the package I was quoted. I suppose I could have remotes added later if I had a consistent need. It's kind of hard to swallow spending $1,700 more than the Deere and getting only 19.5 PTO hp, though. Is the build quality and lack of emissions complexity worth it? My neighbor with the 3032E is great, and would help me out if my tractor couldn't power an auger or other implement, but I'm buying my own tractor for a reason and I don't want to be calling him every other week.

I generally agree that the JD went cheap on the 3***E series, even to an untrained eye- but with so many hinting that the first tractor is rarely the last, maybe the less expensive JD makes more sense to buy. It would be out of character for me to trade in/up though unless there was some deal breaker issue that came up. I'm pretty confident in my plans for the land, and don't expect to make major changes.

I'm in the Lakeland/ Winter Haven area, so Chiefland and Ocala dealers are a little far for me. I've actually gotten the best up front offers from JD and Kubota dealers within 5 miles- to the tune of $1,500 on the JD and $2,500 on the Kubota.

 

[jeff9366]

With a light tractor like an L2501, with corresponding light implements, you can work fine without hydraulic Top & Tilt.

Top & Tilt is really appreciated when you need to adjust heavy implements regularly on a heavy tractor working hard dirt.

I'm in the Lakeland/ Winter Haven area, so Chiefland and Ocala dealers are a little far for me.

Refine your location in your T-B-N PROFILE so it will be of use on all your posts.

Here are a few tractors and TLBs currently on eBay, near zip code 33801:

Industrial Tractor | eBay

Backhoe Loader | eBay

 

[DK35vince]

I generally agree that the JD went cheap on the 3***E series, even to an untrained eye- but with so many hinting that the first tractor is rarely the last, maybe the less expensive JD makes more sense to buy. It would be out of character for me to trade in/up though unless there was some deal breaker issue that came up. I'm pretty confident in my plans for the land, and don't expect to make major changes.

Get the size/model and features you want now and the chances that you feel you need to trade up later will be greatly reduced or not needed at all.

 

[motownbrowne]

Thanks for all of the replies. I think I need to prioritize the HST and not look at it as a wash. Our property is no where near square, with some tight spots along the property lines and driveway fencing. I intend to put in a small berm sooner than later. I also didn't realize that I'd lose the live PTO with the DT transmission. It would put me right at $20k according to the add-on price I was told compared to the package I was quoted. I suppose I could have remotes added later if I had a consistent need. It's kind of hard to swallow spending $1,700 more than the Deere and getting only 19.5 PTO hp, though. Is the build quality and lack of emissions complexity worth it? My neighbor with the 3032E is great, and would help me out if my tractor couldn't power an auger or other implement, but I'm buying my own tractor for a reason and I don't want to be calling him every other week.

I generally agree that the JD went cheap on the 3***E series, even to an untrained eye- but with so many hinting that the first tractor is rarely the last, maybe the less expensive JD makes more sense to buy. It would be out of character for me to trade in/up though unless there was some deal breaker issue that came up. I'm pretty confident in my plans for the land, and don't expect to make major changes.

I'm in the Lakeland/ Winter Haven area, so Chiefland and Ocala dealers are a little far for me. I've actually gotten the best up front offers from JD and Kubota dealers within 5 miles- to the tune of $1,500 on the JD and $2,500 on the Kubota.

Yes, 19.5 PTO HP isa little anemic, but... it's the same tractor as the L3301 and 3901 in every way except engine power. With a hydrostatic transmission, you will be able to power ANY implement that the 3301 or 3901 can use(which would also include anything the 3032 or 3038 JDs could use). Yes you'll have to go slower, but with the HST, you can do that. You can run a 6' bush hog on there just fine. Yes, you'll have to reduce your ground speed, versus a tractor with more HP, to keep the RPM at rated speed, but it'll handle the implement just as well as the 3901 and for a lot less money. The question is just how much of a hurry you are in.

 

[Tompet]

If I was buying one of those machines, I'd pick the 2501 Kubota with the HST. Personal preference, I suppose, but I've been very pleased with my orange machine. It might have less ponies than the JD, but unless you are in a big hurry, it'll get the job done just the same. Extra weight and lift capacity is a big plus to me.

For what the op has written and budget this would be a good simple choice. From what your concerns are as written...it would be my choice...ha for whatever that is worth! Sounds like you have shopped around at competing dealers. Maybe you'll do a little better when you negotiate your final choice. Either one will do the work. Enjoy the new tractor.

I don't think you will need to trade in any time soon, but if Comments here have made that a concern, do a little more due diligence to ease those concerns. If you really feel the need for some better features or more hp...it is cheaper to spend it now.

 

[gladehound]

So many people come on TBN and say they are buying their first tractor and that they want it to be the only one they ever buy. Chances are, it wont be. That's because too many things change in life. I doubt any of us know what our needs will be 10, 20, 30 years down the road.

That being said, why not find a good value used machine (something you can turn around for either no loss or a profit if you want to). If you buy with that mind set, you don't have to worry about buying the perfect machine and you'll be dollars ahead.

If you are between the JD and Kubota specified in your post, I'd agree with the others, get the Kubota. I think that whichever you get, you will want to get something bigger sometime down the road. The Kubota with HST will sell the easiest. Kubota is sustaining their good quality. JD is cheapening their products. 10 years from now, Kubota will have the much better reputation i.e. better resale. But 20K is a ton of money for ~20 PTO hp. Sure would get a lot more for your money with a slightly used larger interim Tier 4 model - especially from one of the Korean manufacturers (LS or Kioti).

 

[jeff9366]

So many people come on TBN and say they are buying their first tractor and that they want it to be the only one they ever buy. Chances are, it wont be.

Most new tractor owners find far more uses for their tractors than they imagined when shopping. Then, they begin to browse the ATTACHMENTS forum and discover their tractor has expanded capabilities via Three Point Hitch mounted implements. The budget goes to blazes. Desire for a heavier tractor seeps into the consciousness, the golf clubs are sold, the wife gets a part time job ****EVERYTHING CHANGES******

 

[Kubota 2350]

Get the size/model and features you want now and the chances that you feel you need to trade up later will be greatly reduced or not needed at all.

I agree, buy once, cry once.

 

[AustinOX]

Working on a deal on an L3240 gst with 70 hrs. No FEL or attachments. Dealer will add a new LA724 loader and 6' med duty bush hog for $19,700. I think it's the best package yet.