Cold start issues, which fluid needs a heater?

[MinnesotaEric]

TSO
Not wanting to add more grief to you but I am concerned that you have introduced air into the injection pump and lines by the opening up of the injection lines.
This air will prevent the pressure from building up enough to open the injectors.
First check if your manual shows how to bleed the injection system. It likely does as you can create the same problem running out of fuel.
Basically, in addition to getting fuel into the filter and up to the banjo bolt, the injection lines need to be loosened at the injectors as the engine cranks. It usually takes two to do this as you close up the line after fuel appears.
Dave M7040

I woke up to no snow to plow at the Mall, so good morning, everybody!

I didn't read where TSO had opened up the lines, only that his loader is in the way.

Like Dave and Skyhook say, don't crack those injector lines open. If you do, you may need to bleed them sort of like manually bleeding brakes, only the manual primer pump is your helper.

After blending the fuel, filling the fuel filter with diesel #1 (or kerosene) getting things warmed up, failing to start, and throwing something (as outlined above), :thumbsup: To manually bleed the lines:

1) Prime the fuel system using the manual hand pump.
2) Identify if there is a bleeder nut of any kind at the end of the injector rail. If not, identify the nut at the very top of the fuel injector that is furthest from the injection pump.

Theory: Just like with brake bleeding, you want to open and close the nut while there is pressure in the system. The pressure is supplied by the manual plunger, which is to say, you will be cracking open the nut to bleed out air, and immediately closing it. Then you will prime the manual plunger, build up pressure and repeat.

3) Open and close with the bleeder nut at the end of the fuel rail, or the nut at the top of the furthest injector from the high pressure fuel pump. Manually, prime and repeat until you see fuel coming out.
4) Move onto the next injector until you have no air and nothing but fresh kerosene or diesel #1 coming out.

5) Reprime the system a final time, and crank the system over and start that thing up.

If it doesn't start, go find a nice book to read and wait for warmer weather.​

Using the engine starter to pressurize the system is more complicated and may require the use of a helper, who will have an opinion, an opinion you will likely not want to hear. To bleed the system using the starter:

1) Hook up a battery booster and turn it onto 10 or 30 amps.
2) Hook up a remote starter on the starter terminals (or carefully explain what you're doing to a helper who will work the ignition switch and work out your signals).
3) With the engine cranking, and all of the things I talked about in my prior post with fuel blending done and priming the fuel filter with diesel #1 (or kerosene) and the system hand primed to pressure, crack open the furthest from the injector pump nut on the top of an injector.

Just like with brake bleeding, you want to close it while there is pressure, which in this case is while the engine is still cranking.

4) Repeat cranking, opening, then closing, then stop cranking, until fuel comes out.
5) Move on to the next injector and repeat. If after several tries, nothing comes out, then try moving on to the next injector.
6) After fresh diesel #1 (or kerosene) is coming out, manually prime the system and start the engine.​

 

[TSO]

Thanks fellas.

Ok, had a heat lamp on the pump overnight, & a charger on the battery. Now there is a torpedo heater pointed at it, and I have a couple errands to run including getting some fresh fuel. When I get back home I will drain the old fuel and replace it with new like Eric mentioned. Then I will try to crank her and see what happens. Eric, you mentioned hand priming it, do you know where I might find the manual primer and what it might look like? Also, I noticed that aside from the four fuel lines that go up to the injectors, there also is an additional line at the injectors that connect the injectors together, then route back to the pump. I don't know if these would be the bleed lines or not, and I'm not sure if I've noticed a bleeder bolt on the injector rail but I will have a look.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Thanks fellas.

Ok, had a heat lamp on the pump overnight, & a charger on the battery. Now there is a torpedo heater pointed at it, and I have a couple errands to run including getting some fresh fuel. When I get back home I will drain the old fuel and replace it with new like Eric mentioned. Then I will try to crank her and see what happens. Eric, you mentioned hand priming it, do you know where I might find the manual primer and what it might look like? Also, I noticed that aside from the four fuel lines that go up to the injectors, there also is an additional line at the injectors that connect the injectors together, then route back to the pump. I don't know if these would be the bleed lines or not, and I'm not sure if I've noticed a bleeder bolt on the injector rail but I will have a look.

The primer should look like a plunger and be on the fuel filter housing. If not, look for some mention of it in your owner's manual.

It is finally snowing, and I must chase off and push snow around at the Mall, so you're on your own, but photos will help others tell you what to do.

 

[Billy Bee]

TSO, Don't want to hijack your thread, but these guys know a lot about gelling. My question is; if I have summer diesel in the tractor , which I do. I plowed snow a month ago and it started after much time on the glow plugs. That was in 30 degree weather, now it has been below zero quite a bit. If there is gelling I don't think it would be good to try start the tractor. Will gel ungel when the weather warms up? This is my first diesel. TX, Bill

 

[Coyote machine]

TSO, Don't want to hijack your thread, but these guys know a lot about gelling. My question is; if I have summer diesel in the tractor , which I do. I plowed snow a month ago and it started after much time on the glow plugs. That was in 30 degree weather, now it has been below zero quite a bit. If there is gelling I don't think it would be good to try start the tractor. Will gel ungel when the weather warms up? This is my first diesel. TX, Bill

You are hijacking this thread; start your own thread.

 

[TSO]

I don't mind...

 

[Dave M7040]

The primer should look like a plunger and be on the fuel filter housing. If not, look for some mention of it in your owner's manual.

It is finally snowing, and I must chase off and push snow around at the Mall, so you're on your own, but photos will help others tell you what to do.

Eric, in a post some time ago TSO mentioned he had an electric fuel pump which would fill the filter up promptly after he dumped the contents.
I also think that the photo posted of the side of the engine showed a selector valve at the filter which had an air position which I would expect is to bleed the system up to the filter when the electric fuel pump is operated.
TSO, There is usually a drain line from the injectors back to some point earlier in the fuel system. It wont be of help to you at this time.
It is the high pressure fittings at the injectors, which should look the same as the ones at the pump, that you have to loosen while cranking.
Dave M7040

 

[TSO]

Well guys, good news...

I tried the easiest method first and it worked. Had the heat bulb on the pump last night, then pointed the torpedo at it for a couple hrs this morning. Picked up fresh fuel, drained the tank and the filter. Refilled with with the fresh fuel, a little kerosene and a smidgen of PS. She started right up! No priming other than priming the fuel filter with the ignition.

Ran her for an hour just now clearing snow, and so I have to believe that all the old fuel is out of the system by now.

I guess we'll know next time I go to start it.

Thanks for all the help and replies. Definitely learned some new stuff about the tractor, and I appreciate you lending me your knowledge.

On a side note, this got me thinking (which is usually dangerous) ... Could I take these injectors to a shop and have them upgraded/replaced with bigger injectors, and if so, would that yield more power by itself? Or would additional programming be required?

 

[TJP89]

You know how to load a disabled tractor on to a trailer? I'll show you. Here, hold my beer....

You get a couple of guys to push it around, try to push it up the ramp, dive for cover as it comes back down, get the neighbor's tractor and push it up with the loader

Oh wait, that was a gear tractor with nothing on the 3PT and no loader and only weighed 3000#

I actually have no idea how one would go about getting a disabled loader tractor on a trailer, I suppose you have to drop the loader somehow.

 

[Dave M7040]

Well guys, good news...

I tried the easiest method first and it worked. Had the heat bulb on the pump last night, then pointed the torpedo at it for a couple hrs this morning. Picked up fresh fuel, drained the tank and the filter. Refilled with with the fresh fuel, a little kerosene and a smidgen of PS. She started right up! No priming other than priming the fuel filter with the ignition.

Ran her for an hour just now clearing snow, and so I have to believe that all the old fuel is out of the system by now.

I guess we'll know next time I go to start it.

Thanks for all the help and replies. Definitely learned some new stuff about the tractor, and I appreciate you lending me your knowledge.

TSO
This is great news, I was about to board a plane to come and help you......
I think we have all learned from each other as you did the work.
Leave the injectors alone. More fuel requires more air to burn and a bigger exhaust to get rid of the burnt products of combustion.
If you want need/more power get a bigger tractor.

Dave M7040

 

[skyhook]

TSO, glad you got er going,
I don't know if your machine has one or if you stated it had an electric pump,
but usually, mechanical pumps ( the one before your filter that is on the side of your engine ) it pumps the fuel up to the Injection Pump, some of them have a little lever on them, this is for priming fuel up through the system, thats when you open an injector line and "prime" fuel with this lever, no need for turning the engine over in this case.

 

[Coyote machine]

No, you can't upgrade to bigger injectors. You can and still should have them pop tested. Why, because with the stuff in your fuel filter and possibly in your injectors if even one is not spraying fuel like it is set at the factory to do, in a conical pattern, this can lead to much unburned fuel entering the crankcase and diluting your oil, which will eventually lead to spun bearings, premature engine wear, and eventually to engine failure.

You can do what you want, as this thread testifies to, and I don't know how many who posted in this thread owned and ran a foreign auto repair shop, working on just this type of problem on high end Benzes and other diesels, but I have done so for many years, and had the specialized Bosch pop testers and other expensive equipment used to perform engine diagnosis. What I'm getting to is what you can't SEE can hurt your tractor. The only way to know your injectors are working properly is to test them.....

Your choice.

 

[IslandTractor]

No, you can't upgrade to bigger injectors. You can and still should have them pop tested. Why, because with the stuff in your fuel filter and possibly in your injectors if even one is not spraying fuel like it is set at the factory to do, in a conical pattern, this can lead to much unburned fuel entering the crankcase and diluting your oil, which will eventually lead to spun bearings, premature engine wear, and eventually to engine failure.

You can do what you want, as this thread testifies to, and I don't know how many who posted in this thread owned and ran a foreign auto repair shop, working on just this type of problem on high end Benzes and other diesels, but I have done so for many years, and had the specialized Bosch pop testers and other expensive equipment used to perform engine diagnosis. What I'm getting to is what you can't SEE can hurt your tractor. The only way to know your injectors are working properly is to test them.....

Your choice.

CM, for the mechanically challenged, can you explain how fuel that is not conically distributed ends up in the crankcase? Wouldn't it just blow out into the exhaust? And, if fuel is getting into the crankcase, wouldn't the oil level rise? Couldn't you just monitor oil level? Thanks.

 

[Coyote machine]

Diesel fuel needs correct atomization to be compressed to the point of combustion in a CI system diesel. Compression Ignition essentially describes the process pretty well. When a conical spray pattern exits the tip of the nozzle of an injector it is atomized into microscopic particles that combust under the extreme pressure and heat of each combustion chamber (cylinder). That is similar to using the glow plugs to pre-heat the combustion chamber so the engine will start when it's cold.

The fuel mix is also dependent on the precise timing of the combustion chamber piston position, the timing of the delivery of the atomized fuel and all parts of the mechanical fuel delivery system being in total sync.

Yes, one could monitor the crankcase on perfectly level surface at the same oil temp and amount of time for all oil to have drained back to the crankcase after each use, but it would be onerous and not very accurate at best , and who has the time to match the conditions to get an accurate read?

Here are some of the issues with unburned fuel: non- conical spray patterns, are not unique to diesels. L and K-Jetronic gas Bosch EFI and hi pressure auto fuel delivery systems suffered the same problems, mainly fuel leaking off the injector tip when it should be closed; fuel pissing onto the cylinder walls and running down into the crankcase, while 'cutting' the oil needed on the cylinder walls, when the engine is running. Any or all of these issues lead to compromised oil, main and crank bearings/journals being robbed of needed oil, etc. And in the case of the early 70's 6 cylinder Volvos building up enough gas & vapors of combustion to literally blow the oil pan off the engine when cranked to start.

To say nothing of the lack of power due to less combustion being created in the cylinders affected, and wasted fuel= greater cost to run, with less available power, and slow engine death.

Remember one has to be aware something is happening to monitor it. And it's pretty difficult to know an injector is not to spec on a diesel, unless there is excessive smoke present. And injectors on all vehicles are able to be tested and in many cases reset by qualified technicians with knowledge and experience/tools and parts available.

To understand how important cleanliness is when working with injectors/fuel distributors, and IPs, injection pumps, those who rebuilt them for large trucks, earth movers, etc, do their work in clean rooms with positive air pressure. It is very precise work, to say the least.

Here's a link to Bosch certified injector testing facilities and how they use strobes etc. to determine spray pattern, etc.

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...TF-8#q=clean+room+injector+rebuilding&spell=1



Hope this answers your questions.

BTW, some of the videos are very interesting, IMHO.

 

[IslandTractor]

Diesel fuel needs correct atomization to be compressed to the point of combustion in a CI system diesel. Compression Ignition essentially describes the process pretty well. When a conical spray pattern exits the tip of the nozzle of an injector it is atomized into microscopic particles that combust under the extreme pressure and heat of each combustion chamber (cylinder). That is similar to using the glow plugs to pre-heat the combustion chamber so the engine will start when it's cold.

The fuel mix is also dependent on the precise timing of the combustion chamber piston position, the timing of the delivery of the atomized fuel and all parts of the mechanical fuel delivery system being in total sync.

Yes, one could monitor the crankcase on perfectly level surface at the same oil temp and amount of time for all oil to have drained back to the crankcase after each use, but it would be onerous and not very accurate at best , and who has the time to match the conditions to get an accurate read?

Here are some of the issues with unburned fuel: non- conical spray patterns, are not unique to diesels. L and K-Jetronic gas Bosch EFI and hi pressure auto fuel delivery systems suffered the same problems, mainly fuel leaking off the injector tip when it should be closed; fuel pissing onto the cylinder walls and running down into the crankcase, while 'cutting' the oil needed on the cylinder walls, when the engine is running. Any or all of these issues lead to compromised oil, main and crank bearings/journals being robbed of needed oil, etc. And in the case of the early 70's 6 cylinder Volvos building up enough gas & vapors of combustion to literally blow the oil pan off the engine when cranked to start.

To say nothing of the lack of power due to less combustion being created in the cylinders affected, and wasted fuel= greater cost to run, with less available power, and slow engine death.

Remember one has to be aware something is happening to monitor it. And it's pretty difficult to know an injector is not to spec on a diesel, unless there is excessive smoke present. And injectors on all vehicles are able to be tested and in many cases reset by qualified technicians with knowledge and experience/tools and parts available.

To understand how important cleanliness is when working with injectors/fuel distributors, and IPs, injection pumps, those who rebuilt them for large trucks, earth movers, etc, do their work in clean rooms with positive air pressure. It is very precise work, to say the least.

Here's a link to Bosch certified injector testing facilities and how they use strobes etc. to determine spray pattern, etc.

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...TF-8#q=clean+room+injector+rebuilding&spell=1



Hope this answers your questions.

BTW, some of the videos are very interesting, IMHO.

Makes perfect sense. Does anyone routinely have their injectors tested though? How does one determine that it is time to test them?

 

[Coyote machine]

Thanks. Yes it makes sense, and I look at it this way: forewarned is forearmed. Meaning if you know a weak spot exists that can be dealt with for relatively low cost in maintenance over the life of the machine, then why not add it to the list. I would set a bar at the following height: if one experiences an event like TSO did then to make sure things are on track, pull them and do a pop test. Otherwise, if a bad fuel event occurs, waxing stops the tractor dead in it's tracks, a fuel filter accidentally goes way over change interval, or power or smoke issues crop up, it may be time. If the engine is up to high hours, etc.

Check out some of the videos and the certifications these diesel rebuilders have to invest in, time, money, and continuing education on the technology, to see what diesels of today present as problems to be solved. One said 'we used to deal with thousands of an inch, now we deal in microns'. Another stated the injectors need to be in the clean room for 8 hours to stabilize. A speck of dust can cause some of them to jam; in common rail injection systems.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

TSO, Don't want to hijack your thread, but these guys know a lot about gelling. My question is; if I have summer diesel in the tractor , which I do. I plowed snow a month ago and it started after much time on the glow plugs. That was in 30 degree weather, now it has been below zero quite a bit. If there is gelling I don't think it would be good to try start the tractor. Will gel ungel when the weather warms up? This is my first diesel. TX, Bill

Do not run with the diesel #2 below zero. Diesel, as it gets colder literally forms wax. The wax plugs stuff up. To prevent waxing precautions must be taken.

Read this two page PDF and you will know all things needed to know容xcept for any unanswered questions.

http://www.todaystrucking.com/images/SolvingWinterDieselProblems91-1R2.pdf