geothermal questions and possible DIY

[dodge man]

So do you have to be running how water and does the furnace have to running for this to work?

 

[LD1]

Yes the unit has to be running for it to heat the domestic hot water.

On thing that I am unsure of though....weather it be adding a second tank or only using one......

Is there a circulating pump that circulates domestic hot water through the desuperheater coil? or does it work on natural convection (I think is the correct term), where as hot water will rise naturally and outlet at the top and doings so would thus pull cold water off the bottom of the tank and into the DSH coil?

 

[buckeyefarmer]

LD1, I sent you a PM with some pricing info.

There are split geo units, basically for retrofits in existing houses. I put in single package unit, as it is precharged and you just hook up ductwork, and the water loops.
desuper will have it's own circulation pump, mine came with the Hw circ pump built in.

I use the QT non pressurized pumps on my loops, no air tank or pressure problems, they are much more maintenance free than a pressurized pump.
I also headered inside, with shutoff valves on all loops, this makes it easy to purge using your loop pump, no flush cart required. the downsize is more holes thru the wall.

I have the comfort Aire HTV unit. You can get their design guide here:

Comfort-Aire : THE SOURCE for Residential and Commercial Heating and Cooling Equipment.

 

[ozley]

LD1 do you mind if ask the square foot of the home.
Thanks

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Making the slinkies.
flow pump, with bypass valves. Picture take with pump running and cover off, you can see the water level, and it makes it easy to add the glycol.
Indoor header, unfinished in this picture.

I also made my own flow meter attachment, don't have a picture of it handy.

 

[LD1]

LD1 do you mind if ask the square foot of the home.
Thanks

1250 + full basement

Making the slinkies. View attachment 398402
flow pump, with bypass valves. Picture take with pump running and cover off, you can see the water level, and it makes it easy to add the glycol. View attachment 398404
Indoor header, unfinished in this picture. View attachment 398407

I also made my own flow meter attachment, don't have a picture of it handy.

Why did you decide to go with the pressure-less system? Guy I spoke with at terrasouce reccomended a pressurized system, and cautioned using the pressure less system as you cannot use propylene-glycol based fluid as it is too thick, and cannot use methanol based either as an open system allows the alcohol to evaporate and some type of acid to build up. In general, he just advised against them.

 

[MacLawn]

...There are split geo units, basically for retrofits in existing houses. I put in single package unit, as it is precharged and you just hook up ductwork, and the water loops. Desuper will have it's own circulation pump, mine came with the Hw circ pump built in.

Interesting. That's wha' mine would be, replacing my current air to air unit, compressor unit outside, other thingamajig (I exhausted my scientific terminology) inside in a small closet built for it way back when me house was built. Just connect to current duct work, eh? My ducts are in attic, pipes come through crawl space. I'll have to check into this.

LD, looking forward to how ye do yours.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

glycol is the safest to use, and there are less problems with a non pressure system. I thinks it's easier to do nonpressurize for a DIY. The design software will size the pump for you, based on your loop lengths and type of antifreeze used. Maybe it depends on the equipment terrasource sells? Looking at their web site, looks like they only sell pressurized systems. It's been a few yrs since I took the geo course, so I don't remember all the tradeoffs.

 

[LD1]

Terrasource actually will sell both. But the guy I spoke with advised against the non-pressure system. Said he would sell me whatever I needed, but would require me to sign a form stating that I understood the possible issues with using the wrong type of antifreeze in a non pressure system, and he wouldnt warranty anything damaged as a result of using the wrong stuff.

 

[techman]

glycol is the safest to use, and there are less problems with a non pressure system. I thinks it's easier to do nonpressurize for a DIY. The design software will size the pump for you, based on your loop lengths and type of antifreeze used. Maybe it depends on the equipment terrasource sells? Looking at their web site, looks like they only sell pressurized systems. It's been a few yrs since I took the geo course, so I don't remember all the tradeoffs.

Glycol is neither better or easier to use. It has a lower specific heat, meaning it can not carry as much heat, and it has relatively high viscosity when cold. This results in bigger, or dual pumps. Ethanol based (Environal or equivalent) is the standard in most colder areas today. Also non pressurized systems can lead to rust and corrosion due to the ready supply of oxygen. Except for open loop (well based) systems I have never seen anyone using an "open" system.

Doing a closed, pressurized system is no issue, even for a DIYer.

paul

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Glycol is neither better or easier to use.

reread what I said. I said glycol (propylene) is safest, which is what IGSHPA says. I said non pressurized systems are easier, that is my opinion. I said nothing about open loop systems, but they do cause more corrosion. I know of one person who has one, and got 30 yrs out of his unit before it was an issue. He lives in State College, PA.

I'm just trying to help LD1 based on my experience. There is more than one right answer, it depends on your design. Geo is a DIY if you have the basic understanding of how it works, and doesn't have to cost $30,000 per system.

 

[SPIKER]

this company seems to have some pretty good awards & higher efficiency than most of them.

WaterFurnace - Smarter from the Ground Up

had owned their stock a long time ago but no longer. Interesting products when I bought the stock as there was good info available.

I would think the clay and loam of Ohio would be good, however much in my area (100 miles northeast) is more glacial till so depth of tube slinkies would/could be at issue as lots of rocks too. Would almost need to go vertical up here 3 or 4 feet of soil and rock/gravel/shale after that.



Mark

 

[LD1]

Wanted to post another update:

Got a quote back from the first company. All systems include ductwork install as the house has none.

Bryant 226ANA048 4-ton 16 seer 2-stage heat pump, Bryant FVYCNF005 variable speed fan coil, bryant T6-PRH thermostat, $10,576

Bryant 288BNV048 4-ton 18 seer variable speed evolution heat pump, Bryant FE4ANF005 Evolution fan coil, Bryant evolution control, $12,199

Bryant 280ANV048 4-ton 17.5 seer extreme evolution heat pump, Bryant FE4ANF005 Evolution fan coil, Bryant evolution control, $14,727

Bryant GT048 4-ton 2-stage geothermal heat pump, bryant T6-PRH thermostat, earth loop and excavation $18,435

I wanted a price for me doing the digging. But they didnt feel comfortable with me doing it. Not sure why, Just digging trenches. But got a story about how deep they are and dangers that he would feel better if his guy dug them. Thats fine with me....but you for sure arent getting my business now. I guess if all of them will be that way, it will make my decision on the DIY clear and dry.

Odd thing though, when I had all of the companies out to give an estimate (3 of them), and told them all about doing the excavation, ALL 3 of them told me that was a great Idea to save money since I already own the equipment. Seems a but of a change now:confused2:

 

[dragoneggs]

LD, stand firm. If the guy won't work with you assuming you can easily demonstrate your ability to do your part, go another direction. Probably means he wants to maximize his profits rather than team with you. He is missing the opportunity to create a friendship and hence more potential business for him due to a happy customer that will refer other 'good' people.

 

[LD1]

Well, I know I can buy a DIY kit for ~$10k. Thats me doing the digging. Ductwork will still need ran, which from the ones I ahve talked to, thats 3000-3500 and something I really dont want to mess with.

So that puts me in at $13000-$13500 for a DIY. I would think a quote in the $15k range with me digging would make me a buyer. This guy was close. Probably would be there if I did the digging and backfilling.

I'll see if I hear back from the other two or if this will turn out like trying to get quotes for a pole barn. In which I called maybe a dozen companies requesting a quote and only heard from 3. Or like trying to get truss quotes for said building. Called ~8 places and got quotes from 3.

Must be nice to have enough business not to have to worry about even giving a quote.

 

[dragoneggs]

Well, I know I can buy a DIY kit for ~$10k. Thats me doing the digging. Ductwork will still need ran, which from the ones I ahve talked to, thats 3000-3500 and something I really dont want to mess with.

So that puts me in at $13000-$13500 for a DIY. I would think a quote in the $15k range with me digging would make me a buyer. This guy was close. Probably would be there if I did the digging and backfilling.

I'll see if I hear back from the other two or if this will turn out like trying to get quotes for a pole barn. In which I called maybe a dozen companies requesting a quote and only heard from 3. Or like trying to get truss quotes for said building. Called ~8 places and got quotes from 3.

Must be nice to have enough business not to have to worry about even giving a quote.

Interesting to hear your response rate... kinda surprised to be honest. Once you narrow it down to 2 or 3, have a good discussion to make sure you are both on the same page as far as collaboration! Maybe save you some argument later. Walk through the whole process. If they don't do that with you then I would cross them off the list. Might be the deciding factor.

 

[Sigarms]

Also, I am not concerned with load calcs. I don't like the size units they end up concluding to. Too small IMO. I want something that will actually keep the house warm without the constant use of backup.

I don't like sizing for ac loads as most contractors like to do.

One varialbe is called the design temp.

You should of been practicing HVAC in the 60's:thumbsup: BIGGER is always better.

 

[MNBobcat]

Geothermal is one of those things where they just rape you on price. I was quoted $60k to put geothermal in my home. When you check into it, you'll find they charge those outrageous prices because customers view it as really high tech, mysterious sort of thing to install. People can get their head around a standard furnace install but feel like they need some kind of expert for geothermal.

The bottom line is you can install it yourself and for a 1/10 of what a dealer would charge you.

The main thing with geothermal is if you're doing forced-air is the temperature of the heated air is lower than a standard hvac furnace produces. So you need to move a higher volume of air and that means larger main plenum and ducts are required for geothermal.

 

[Sigarms]

LD, stand firm. If the guy won't work with you assuming you can easily demonstrate your ability to do your part, go another direction. Probably means he wants to maximize his profits rather than team with you. He is missing the opportunity to create a friendship and hence more potential business for him due to a happy customer that will refer other 'good' people.

Not hardly.

For being in Ohio, getting a 4 ton 2 stage variable speed system heat pump system INCLUDING all ductwork for under 11k is a GREAT price.

Figuring at least 2-3 people for 3-5 days for all the work, from start to finish, I have no doubt that if ANY company that runs at least 25% overhead would lose money if they did it any cheaper.

Heck, you'd be amazed at the amount of guys in business who work out of their home, have their wife work as their secretary and have a part time under the table helper who has absolutley no clue how to figure out what his actual overhead is to stay in business.

Under 20k from start to finish including ductwork for a 4 ton geothermal system?

You'll find as a contractor, that after spending time with people, offering a good value for the price point your offering, that some customers are better off not being yours. A business relationship is a two way street.

 

[LD1]

Another update for everyone.

Got another quote back today. I dont remember any of the name brands of equipment, I left the quote up at the new house, but they are as follows:

For a 4-ton air to air, price was ~$8700-ish (dont remember if that was 2-stage or single)


4-ton 2-stage geothermal unit with ME doing the excavation and them doing everything else.....$16,500-ish.

So about 2k cheaper across the board than the other company. The $16.5k is getting close to me just having them do it.

With the ductwork running about $3k, They are still about $13.5k for the geo install whereas a DIY kit is in the 10k range.

Im gonna have some decisions to make when it comes time. Weather the extra $3500 to have them do it or not is the big dilemma right now.