Town LOST my Tax Files!

[Coyote machine]

Was away in Europe recently on a 15 day family holiday and when we returned the house sitter noted the tax assessors had been by. I thought that was weird since I had them at my door last Spring sometime asking questions and wanting to take measurements.
Turns out they then called me and asked me to contact them by phone, which is what I was doing when they showed up at my door AGAIN, un-announced?! They proceeded to tell me they were new at the job, they were looking to update the records, and they needed to measure my house/barn shed, etc. They also said they had found many errors in how things had been done previously.
I asked why my house, and were they doing a town wide reassessment. They said no on the assessment and eventually got around to saying they had LOST my entire file!
They still wanted measurements and asked about additions etc. I told them to stop wasting my time, next time give me time to call them back, and rather than just showing up whenever they felt like it to go back to the town hall and FIND my records.
I offered to talk further when they have my records in hand. I also offered to, if necessary, get them data from my most recent Home Equity Loan turned mortgage.
They said the people who had been doing the assessor work for the town previously suddenly left the office a while back?!

Given the situation, what would any of you do in my shoes?

TIA, and for reading this long post....

 

[farmer2009]

Keep an eye out for suspicious activity. Remind them that's a good way to get shot. Snooping around and all you don't know these folks. Did they provide ID? Did you call and verify? Anybody that just shows up like that may have other intent. Be on guard.

 

[Coyote machine]

Turns out we know the second guy of the two; he's the dad of one of my kids former teachers. I will be following up with my accountant, insurance agent, and possibly my bank to find out what they advise. I do have a friend at the town clerk's office too, so he may be able to shed some light....

 

[oosik]

Out here the county assessors do their "site evaluation" by computer scan of aerial photographs. If the scan shows differences between previous and current photos then they come out and do an on-site eval. I can imagine this saves a tremendous amount of on-site evaluation time. Lord knows, it sure has no bearing on the mill levy and resulting taxes. Last time the assessor was here was over 15 years ago. They full well know that out here coming uninvited, as they do, is VERY risky business. They come in vehicles clearly marked with big signs on the sides and they have photo id's.

First, I would certainly ask for identification; second, I would call the city assessors office and verify this ID; third, I would insist on an official letter from THE city assessor attesting to the fact that your files have been lost and that the named individuals are at your residence on official business. Then I would provide the assessors with copies of your records showing the last evaluation and appraised values of all your building, etc. I would then ask that prior to their departure - that you be allowed to see their current data collected, structure evaluations and expected taxes based upon the data collected and structure evaluations made. As a matter of fact, based upon your most recent visit, it would probably be good to send this, in a letter, to THE city assessor. It might motivate them to make a more diligent search for your "missing file".

This entire situation sounds very suspicious.

 

[RoyJackson]

I assume you're writing about the town's Listers.

I'm appealing my assessment now (also a Vermonter, BTW). During the BCA appeal, the Lister made certain statements (under oath, mind you) as facts that were later found to be either supposition or out and out fabrications.
Personally, I wouldn't left them on the property....they can do a drive by.

 

[riptides]

Out here the county assessors do their "site evaluation" by computer scan of aerial photographs. ....

I got into it with my local tax people for doing just that. 50 year old run in sheds do not make garages. New technology and all that, I'd rather have a walk-in so we can set the record straight. Had one on a remodel a few years ago, they had more square footage than I had in my plans. Rather odd.

 

[zing]

They actually have a paper file, instead of having it all in a database somewhere?

Around here unless you do a major reno, you never see anyone. They just tack on a % growth per year based on the average property value increases (capped at 10%) and then if someone sells the city resets the value of that house based on the price it went for.

 

[zing]

Duplicate post, so here is a picture of my tractor and an an old board edger that I dragged out of a bog on my property. Because it is irrelevant, but it is better than reading my post twice...

 

[dave1949]

Why the excitement? So, someone lost your records. I don't think that is something to get worked up about and look for revenge. You've never lost something? You would be willing to pay more taxes to improve the handling and security of town records?

As long as you verify that the people doing the assessment are legit, I don't see an issue. If they are legit, I seriously doubt that they don't have a legal right under state law to inspect your property for assessment purposes.

If you think the assessment is too high, you won't get anywhere with an abatement request without a detailed assessment inspection.

If property taxes rankle you, fighting with the assessor representative will not fix that. All you are doing is driving up the costs for everyone else by wasting peoples' time.

 

[oosik]

I got an interesting story about taxes - it won't help your case, but --- So my aunt is researching our family heritage (Norwegian) and runs into a tax assessment and associated documents dated 1641. The kings assessors are counting sheep, pigs, cows, indentured servants, indentured servant's mud huts, etc and comes up with the numbers. My grandfather, 10-12 generations removed - has a huge battle with them because many of the livestock are not his but the neighbors. They are grazing on my grandfathers land - with or without approval??? They insist that he will pay the tax on them - they are on his land, so they are obviously his. He finally says - OK, they are mine. He contacts the neighbor and tells the neighbor all the animals are his - by order of the king. The battle begins - my grandfather, the assessors and the neighbor.

Sooo - - the evil doings of tax assessors has a well documented history. I don't think my grandfather was such a fine fellow either - found what, he thought, was an easy way to increase his herds. No documents on the outcome but this is for sure - somebody paid the taxes on the animals and my grandfather & the neighbor weren't such good friends anymore - if they ever were.

Another thought - it was tax time, the animals were purposefully on my grandfathers land so the neighbor wouldn't have to pay taxes on them.

 

[zing]

I got an interesting story about taxes - it won't help your case, but --- So my aunt is researching our family heritage (Norwegian) and runs into a tax assessment and associated documents dated 1641. The kings assessors are counting sheep, pigs, cows, indentured servants, indentured servant's mud huts, etc and comes up with the numbers. My grandfather, 10-12 generations removed - has a huge battle with them because many of the livestock are not his but the neighbors. They are grazing on my grandfathers land - with or without approval??? They insist that he will pay the tax on them - they are on his land, so they are obviously his. He finally says - OK, they are mine. He contacts the neighbor and tells the neighbor all the animals are his - by order of the king. The battle begins - my grandfather, the assessors and the neighbor.

Sooo - - the evil doings of tax assessors has a well documented history. I don't think my grandfather was such a fine fellow either - found what, he thought, was an easy way to increase his herds. No documents on the outcome but this is for sure - somebody paid the taxes on the animals and my grandfather & the neighbor weren't such good friends anymore - if they ever were.

Another thought - it was tax time, the animals were purposefully on my grandfathers land so the neighbor wouldn't have to pay taxes on them.

LMAO! Love that story! An interesting look at a time when life was very different, but people were still the same.

 

[oldpilgrim]

I'm so damned mad at being taxed to death. A tax is a permit issued you by the govt. If you don't pay for the permission, you don't get to have/keep something or do something. It's gotten so now EVERYTHING is permitted by way of a tax. We can do virtually nothing without the .gov's permission.

If you don't think it's a permit, try doing/buying/keeping something and tell them you're not paying the tax and see what happens.

rant over.

In Ma, if you refuse to let the assessor in/on your property, they can, by law, assign what they feel is a just evaluation and you have no legal right to contest it...whatever it is.

Dunno about VT, but being run by the same class of politicians as Ma, I'd bet they have a similar law.

 

[newbury]

OP -

Given the situation, what would any of you do in my shoes?

ASSUMing they were legitmate

Turns out we know the second guy of the two;

You should do more research on

the people who had been doing the assessor work for the town previously suddenly left the office

. Had they been assessing people/property to low? To high?
What do they assess on?
Do you have details on all your prior assessments?

If they lose your assessment it's their fault and they have no right to yank you around and raise your taxes.

Back about 20 years ago I had a van I spent about 8 or 10 thousand on, new. The county sent me, and I paid, a tax bill every year based on a $6K purchase price. After about 5 years they sent me a letter saying they thought they had undertaxed me and demanding documentation of the actual purchase price. I had lost it. Whoops. They continued to tax me on the $6K.

 

[Coyote machine]

Why the excitement? So, someone lost your records. I don't think that is something to get worked up about and look for revenge.

Who said I'm excited? Worked up or looking for revenge? My taxes PAY the town's listers to do their job and to keep accurate records, currently on paper, with possible data files as back-up, can't say for sure- NOT my job!


You've never lost something? You would be willing to pay more taxes to improve the handling and security of town records?

Duh:confused2: that's what they're attempting to do now, because they were so screwed up to begin with, many people were/are being charged totally arbitrary amounts, in fact at one time the lister's asked US what we thought our property was worth.

As long as you verify that the people doing the assessment are legit, I don't see an issue. If they are legit, I seriously doubt that they don't have a legal right under state law to inspect your property for assessment purposes.

Duh again; I don't have a problem with town lister's doing their job; so long as if they ask me to call them, they give me time to get in touch with them, (which I was in process of doing, as they had stated in their voicemail), when they arrived at my doorstep 1/2 hour later for the 2nd unannounced visit in a week.
They said they came to apologize for the lost records, which seems to have happened to numerous other property owner's in addition to me.

As a taxpayer I have a right to expect a certain level of competence from those assigning taxes on my property, and the right to expect them to keep crucial tax docs safe and up to date.

If you think the assessment is too high, you won't get anywhere with an abatement request without a detailed assessment inspection.

WRONG: they used to tax me on my view. It grew in with trees, so I asked them time and again to adjust it and if not then visit to assess during the summer when the trees are in full leaf.
They removed the view assessment entirely- just by asking.

If property taxes rankle you, fighting with the assessor representative will not fix that. All you are doing is driving up the costs for everyone else by wasting peoples' time.

Again, wrong. I'm not fighting with anyone, and getting my assessment done right is their JOB, which is not wasting anyone's time. The time spent doing the job of assessing each property takes whatever time it takes, less time if the records are kept properly.
In fact I just opened a letter signed by the listers, saying they had found and reviewed my file, and they don't have a floor plan for my properties, and are REQUESTING a site visit at my convenience.

 

[dave1949]

Again, wrong. I'm not fighting with anyone, and getting my assessment done right is their JOB, which is not wasting anyone's time. The time spent doing the job of assessing each property takes whatever time it takes, less time if the records are kept properly.
In fact I just opened a letter signed by the listers, saying they had found and reviewed my file, and they don't have a floor plan for my properties, and are REQUESTING a site visit at my convenience.

You still sound exited to me. :laughing: Look at your thread title: LOST and ending with !

Yes, it will cost you more to get a better level of service. If the town was willing to spend the money on a full-time professional who kept things organized and secure, and not make arbitrary assessments and guesstimates, you would pay for it in taxes. Instead, many towns go with the low bidder, or poorly paid town clerk, who may or may not make a mess out the process, or disappear as yours apparently did.

I'm not defending them, but that is the reality many folks deal with in small NE towns. You get what you are willing to pay for, fits here. In fact your records were not lost, and no capable professional would have told you they were if they weren't.

The comment about fighting with the assessors was a response to other posts more than yours. There is only one way to lower property taxes and that is by reducing the town budget. Anything else is useless posturing that is a waste of everyone's time.

I apologize if I got the wrong impression from your post, it sounded like you were exited over what I would consider normal trials and tribulations that happen now and then. I wish you luck. We had a town-wide reval this spring and I will find out in September how excited I should be. :laughing:

 

[Sigarms]

I assume you're writing about the town's Listers.

I'm appealing my assessment now (also a Vermonter, BTW). During the BCA appeal, the Lister made certain statements (under oath, mind you) as facts that were later found to be either supposition or out and out fabrications.
Personally, I wouldn't left them on the property....they can do a drive by.

Roy

On our one trip to Vermont a couple years ago, it was a first for our one boy (to the state), so I took him to Ben and Jerry's for a tour. At the end of the tour, for the question and answer session, a guy raised up his hand and asked (in a nice Texas drawel) "I'm from Texas, and we just moved back to my wifes home state of Vermont, and I can't figure out why a quart of Ben and Jerry's costs more in Vermont than it does in Texas?"

Your house is worth a million bucks, get over it

 

[Steppenwolfe]

Fishy, fishy, really fishy... You had better pray to God the town minstrels don't screw this up. Just doesn't sound kosher to me...

 

[teejk]

Just a guess...one of your neighbors is contesting his/her assessment. Assessment records are public records so they know what you are assessed at and are using you as an example of why theirs is too high. I've seen it before...they either get reduced and you stay the same or you get increased and they stay the same. If I'm correct then be prepared to pay more...towns HATE to reduce assessed values (and will get even if they are forced to...I learned that fact the hard way).

 

[hawkeye08]

I don't trust the lot of them. They do what they want and unless you have lots of time and money to fight it, you are stuck paying the high taxes. I will never let them in my house or shop, the permits were issued, inspections done at time of building the structures.

 

[Coyote machine]

OP -

ASSUMing they were legitmate

You should do more research on . Had they been assessing people/property to low? To high?
What do they assess on?

Weegie board?!

Do you have details on all your prior assessments?

Not yet. but I plan to shortly. I will not allow the cretans in charge to screw up my data, from this point forward.

If they lose your assessment it's their fault and they have no right to yank you around and raise your taxes.

Can I get that in writing!:confused2:

Back about 20 years ago I had a van I spent about 8 or 10 thousand on, new. The county sent me, and I paid, a tax bill every year based on a $6K purchase price. After about 5 years they sent me a letter saying they thought they had undertaxed me and demanding documentation of the actual purchase price. I had lost it. Whoops. They continued to tax me on the $6K.

You still sound exited to me. :laughing: Look at your thread title: LOST and ending with !

That's to grab poster's attention and get replies....

Yes, it will cost you more to get a better level of service. If the town was willing to spend the money on a full-time professional who kept things organized and secure, and not make arbitrary assessments and guesstimates, you would pay for it in taxes. Instead, many towns go with the low bidder, or poorly paid town clerk, who may or may not make a mess out the process, or disappear as yours apparently did.

Town lister's disappeared because the townsfolk was/is tired of idiots at the helm, and are replacing the old guard with supposedly better, more able ones. Time will tell.


I'm not defending them, but that is the reality many folks deal with in small NE towns. You get what you are willing to pay for, fits here. In fact your records were not lost, and no capable professional would have told you they were if they weren't.

On this we agree; that's why I told them to pound salt and stop wasting MY time and go back to the town records and find mine! Surprise, surprise, they did. But, for the record if something can't be found, it's lost until it is found, if ever. In this case they and I got lucky and they found my 'misplaced' files.

The comment about fighting with the assessors was a response to other posts more than yours. There is only one way to lower property taxes and that is by reducing the town budget. Anything else is useless posturing that is a waste of everyone's time.

I apologize if I got the wrong impression from your post, it sounded like you were exited over what I would consider normal trials and tribulations that happen now and then. I wish you luck. We had a town-wide reval this spring and I will find out in September how excited I should be. :laughing:

Apology accepted. It's often hard to tell where the thread OP is coming from just by text alone. Mostly I'm irked by VT's taxes across the board, and this type of nonsense just chews up time I don't have to throw away.
AND, I'm remodeling my upstairs bath as we speak, so having the listers here when I have a contractor's truck/trailer in the driveway isn't helping either.