tractor with no thermostat?!

[CircleRat]

Yes the debate continues. I'm not advocating one way or the other as far as flow rate vs. cooling. All I'm trying to do is address the issue as far as diagnosing this particular problem.
Since it's so easy to just stick the new thermostat in there and test it, why not do that first? If it solves the problem, it's fixed. If it doesn't, at least it'll be done and out of the way so you can get on to the next step in the diagnostic process.

 

[brain55]

There is really no debate here. Excess flow does not cause overheating. This myth is right up there with leaving a battery on a concrete floor will discharge it. He should install a thermostat, not because it will fix the overheating problem, but because when he does fix the overheating problem a properly functioning cooling system will have a thermostat so the engine gets to proper operating temperature quicker.

Brian

 

[CircleRat]

 

[Old Virginia Joe]

tractor with no thermostat?! ('63 Ford 4000)

I'm sorry this is taking so long to resolve, so I appreciate you all sticking with me on this til I can get it resolved. I only get to work on mechanics on weekends or a day off. So, the thermostat (160) has been installed now. I can see water flow inside the top of the radiator (with the cap left off). It appears to (as I stand facing the front of the tractor) to be flowing from my left (where the top hose enters radiator) diagonally to the right. Is that the correct flow pattern? The water pump is not leaking. The temp guage was replaced by the PO, and is only 10 months old. I did a little discing this morning, and I was optimistic. Temps looked good. Then I went to try to finish my mowing job in a thickly grown up old field which includes saplings here and there. I am using a JD 509 five foot bushog. After awhile the temp guage reached the red zone and I cut it off. Here we go again. I think I said before the PO said he had the radiator cleaned and flushed, and the manilla tag was still hanging on it from the rad shop until just last week, so I assumed that is OK. As far as the fins maybe being clogged, the fan has an intact shroud, and definitely sucks air thru it, be it leaf particles, or a dangling rag, so I can see it is passing air thru. I see no oil in the water, nor water in the oil. I hope I have addressed all the previous response questions and suggestions.

Is it possible a JD 509 is too big for this tractor? Just asking out of desperation. :confused2:

 

[boggen]

the old 1950ish allis chalmers CA, tractor after about 4 hours maybe 6 hours pending on temp outside, non stop mowing, "high throttle / RPMs non stop with a good load on the tractor", it gets to the point it will want to over heat. and its time to stop and let it cool down for a hour or more.

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generally flush radiator yearly. and each time, i get some "rust" pieces coming out of it. i generally toss in some sort of anti rust / corrosion additive to the 50/50 mix i put into the system.
1 flushing system for me.... undo drain plug at edge of radiator, and drain to bucket with a hose.
2 get the garden hose out and place it into the radiator top. and just let it run.
3 turn on the tractor, and wait 5 to 15 minutes till thermostat opens up. to flush the old stuff still in the block out.
4 shut the tractor down, and let rest of the stuff drain out.
5 shut drain valve
6 refill 50/50 mix.
7 turn tractor back on run for 5 to 15 minutes till thermostat kicks in.
8 top off 50/50 mix.
9 put radiator cap back on.

not sure if above way is correct or not, but its how i do it.

get an antifreeze tester, they are repetitively pretty cheap, there are gauges the sucks the mix up, and then there is a electrical way of testing, to test the antifreeze. to see were you high boil over temp, to low cold temp is.
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Document Moved = newholland and ford tractors

my cheat link (dealer i bought the ford 555c TLB from) easier going through there site vs multi clicks to find the parts catalog on newhollands website
click link.... Vendor Catalogs ｻ Pat Kelly Equipment Co.
click ""New Holland Parts Catalog"" middle of page

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"kaboom" spray can, its like a spray on bleach that foams up its for cleaning kitchen sink, bathtubs, toliets, etc... located in soap isle at walmart i do believe. have used it on radiator before on the allis, and also on the outside A/C unit radiator/fins, and on a 110v window a/c unit to clean the fins on it as well.
just spray it on wait a couple minutes, then a garden hose (without a nozzle) just a straight end garden hose to wash the stuff off. then possibly repeat one or 2 more times.
let everything dry before taking out into the dust. have noticed a change in allis and the a/c units in a cooler running temp.

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i would double check the coolant pump, they do go bad. wear and tear, gunk build up inside of them. with overall effect of less GPM (gallons per minute) pumped, vs a new one.

you might consider, adjusting carb, if you need to mess around with the choke or have it out some or like
new spark plugs, new plug wires and new distributor cap/rotor, while it most likely not make a big difference on cooling problem directly.. it should revive the engine to run more efficient, its one of my yearly maintenance things. .
it is a system and not individual parts.

 

[r8nger]

I would also check engine timing, and carberation, lean = hot . You could always try an electric fan just to see if that helps/ get one off of a junk car or something .

 

[94BULLITT]

If the coolant circulates too fast the radiator can not do its job and the engine will run hot. I have heard of people trimming out the coolant passages to the in the head gasket to match what they are in the block and cause an over heating condition so if the coolant moves to fast it can be a problem. I would check and make sure the gauge is working correctly first. Then make sure the radiator is not full of debris so air can flow though it. Is the belt tight on the tractor? Next thing I would check do is take the radiator to a radiator shop and have it check out. You really can't tell much by running water through it with a garden hose.

 

[the old grind]

I've seen water pump impellers with iron vanes eroded away from using water vs properly mixed coolant in warm climates where anti-freeze may seem unnecessary, if not from old age and/or coolant gone acidic. Operating in too high a gear works an engine hard, esp when mowing or hogging & thick or wet grass adds more intermittent load than imagined. Idling-down immediately reduces pump flow and the needle rises accordingly. Warm enough day & it lingers there ...

Just because a seal doesn't leak doesn't guarantee that the pump is working/flowing properly, and everything else seems to have be covered by PO. I recall a 350 Olds whose impeller shaft had snapped inside and was the last thing replaced because the seal didn't leak. Owner wouldn't take my bet, but admitted later I had guess right about pump failure. How does belt tension look when temp is at the hottest? Belt glazed at all?

Modern coolants are designed to be mixed with water, as their 'specific heat' (ability to absorb/transfer heat, water is 1.0 and benchmarks the scale) is lower without dilution. 50/50 is the norm (good to -33^ F) and ~2/3 or 70% AF is usually the max recommended. Thermostat is there to keep engine up to operating temp, and with a good rad to take heat/flow out to keep it within range. If the engine ran too cool it would waste fuel and cause accelerated wear. (gas & diesel are abrasive liquids) It's possible, if remotely, that the block has scaled-up and could use the Kaboom trick just as a radiator would be rodded. Gotta check out all possibilities ...

btw, Brian obviously understands the tech bits and myths. :thumbsup: The battery bull is about fantasizing concrete's role vs recognizing the conductivity of damp air at floor level and/or that a charged battery will 'leak down' under the best storage conditions. Coolant flowing too fast is a good one considering pump flow vs block or radiator volume & rate of exchange. Believe what you want, but check/change what you doubt.

 

[CircleRat]

I will continue to keep my opinion on how flow rate affects cooling to myself. Arguing about it is pointless and a waste of time & space in this thread. Diagnostics is a step-by-step process and no step should be left out regardless of how far-fetched it may seem. I've been surprised by things I was sure couldn't happen many times in 30 years as an ASE certified master auto tech (retired '97). These old tractors may seem simple but they have their own brand of surprises nontheless.

So - now that you've installed the thermostat and the condition persists, you can move on. Is the flow restricted in the radiator or hoses? Is it flowing through the block properly? Is the water pump pumping as it should?

94Bullit has a good point about a previous 'mechanic' possibly trimming out any restrictive holes that may have been designed into the head gasket. Has the motor had the head off any time in the recent past? I dunno if this particular motor had that type of gasket, but it's worth looking into if all else fails. Or the head gasket could have simply been installed incorrectly. Or there could be blockage in the water jacket and/or ports in the engine block or head.

Also check the timing and fuel/air mixture as suggested. Since it's so easy to do, maybe just check those now to get it out of the way (another step taken).

Other factors besides a cooling system fault could be an oil flow problem, or a mechanical problem causing excessive heat in the engine. Main crank bearings have been known to do this. In many cases the connecting rod bearings get replaced but the crank bearings are neglected.

It's also possible that your tractor is simply being over-worked by equipment either too big for it or in need of maintenance. The fact that it ran fine with one implement but starts to overheat with another could be an indication of this.

When it 'overheats' is it just the gauge reading hot or does the coolant actually boil over?

 

[Xfaxman]

Re: tractor with no thermostat?! ('63 Ford 4000)

I'm sorry this is taking so long to resolve, so I appreciate you all sticking with me on this til I can get it resolved. I only get to work on mechanics on weekends or a day off. So, the thermostat (160) has been installed now. I can see water flow inside the top of the radiator (with the cap left off). It appears to (as I stand facing the front of the tractor) to be flowing from my left (where the top hose enters radiator) diagonally to the right. Is that the correct flow pattern? ----------------------------

You won't see that flow if the coolant is below 160 degrees, but yes that is the correct flow.