Are all sub compacts essentially equal?

[GManBart]

So I think we can see there is no definition or standard out there for these tractors so people can really call them what they like.

Exactly!

 

[MinnesotaEric]

This thread in summery.

 

[cmkh3]

So could the difference between scut and cut be the ground clearance?
Chris

 

[94BULLITT]

Wait, so now the argument is that I should look really closely at the machines, because it takes that much effort to determine which is larger? If it's that hard to tell the difference, there isn't enough difference to make one a SCUT, and one a CUT. I've seen all of them in person, and while they aren't identical in size, they're all SCUTS in my opinion. There is no such thing as a 1,600lb "true" CUT (LS says the J2023/Boomer 24) weighs 1,565lbs. If it weighs well under 2K and has a 2-range hydro, it's a SCUT...if I can lift it on my FEL, it's definitely a SCUT.

I thought maybe you had only seen a real SCUT from 500' away since you can't tell the difference. A Kubota B series is the same size as the J2023 and the Boomer 25 but it has a 3 range hydro. Would it be a SCUT by your definition?

So what you're also saying is that customers are stupid? If they look at A, and look at B, and can't see that one is a SCUT, and one is a CUT, who's at fault? If they look at the brochure, and like the increased capabilities of B, regardless of what category, you as the authority on tractor naming convention has decreed it should be, where is the problem if it didn't look too big for them? Nobody was misled...they looked at the machines, looked at the brochures, and could compare dimensions, specs, AND balance that with their own observations. They got to choose whichever machine met their needs. If they aren't smart enough to do any research, or visit more than one brand to check the machines out in person, that's their own fault, and not the fact that one company calls a tractor of X size a SCUT, and another calls it a CUT.

Yeah, customers can be stupid. How many people on here have compared the BX and 1 series to a Mahindra Max? I think it is misrepresentation.

There is a size range within all the tractor categories commonly talked about. The larger SCUTs are close to the smallest CUTS, and the largest CUTs are close to the smallest Utility machines. There are no guidelines defining any of these categories, so all you're doing is complaining that your favorite brand might be losing sales to other brands because they market their machines differently.

If Kubota, John Deere, Kioti, and Yanmar all make a tractor the same size and call it a SCUT why would another brand make a larger tractor and call it a SCUT?

You still haven't addressed how a 1,700lb Boomer 25 (LS says it's under 1,565lbs) could be in the same category of machine as your L4240 which weighs more than twice as much? One is a toy in comparison to the other....probably a sign they aren't in the same category.

The Boomer 25 is a Class II compact. Some people have suggested that this size of tractor be called a mid-compact.
http://www.messicks.com/newequip/SmallCompactTractors.aspx

The L4240 is a class IV compact.
http://www.messicks.com/newequip/LargerCompactTractors.aspx

So could the difference between scut and cut be the ground clearance?
Chris

That would be a difference because a CUT is larger so it will have more ground clearance.

 

[k0ua]

So is a "tiny little tractor" somewhat smaller than a SCUT? I mean just look at those knobby tractor tires!

 

[GManBart]

I thought maybe you had only seen a real SCUT from 500' away since you can't tell the difference. A Kubota B series is the same size as the J2023 and the Boomer 25 but it has a 3 range hydro. Would it be a SCUT by your definition?

A B series is larger than a J2023 or Boomer 25. Again, I don't know why you want to argue with the scale and tape measure, but you're simply wrong. Heck, you even repeated all the dimensions about how a 1 series is larger than a BX, and then said "I don't see any difference." Okay, why bother if you're going to point out the facts that one is larger, and simply disregard the facts?

B2650:

1,786lbs
Wheelbase 65.6"
Length 101.2" (they don't list with/wo 3pt).
Width 53.7"
Height 88.4"

J2023

Weight 1,565lbs
Wheelbase 59"
Length 103" w/3pt
Width 44.9"

Those two machines aren't the same size....period.

Yeah, customers can be stupid. How many people on here have compared the BX and 1 series to a Mahindra Max? I think it is misrepresentation.

And it's your job to save them from themselves?

If Kubota, John Deere, Kioti, and Yanmar all make a tractor the same size and call it a SCUT why would another brand make a larger tractor and call it a SCUT?

Because all those machines aren't the identical size...some are a bit larger, and some a bit smaller. There is no accepted standard for what constitutes a SCUT, and the machines you are SO upset about are only slightly larger than the machines you think fit the mould.

The Boomer 25 is a Class II compact. Some people have suggested that this size of tractor be called a mid-compact.
http://www.messicks.com/newequip/SmallCompactTractors.aspx

The L4240 is a class IV compact.
http://www.messicks.com/newequip/LargerCompactTractors.aspx

The whole Class II versus Class IV compact thing appears to be Messicks' creation, not anything accepted, or even referenced, by the rest of the industry.

So, what you're saying is that it's okay for the term "CUT" to spread from 1,700lb machines to something on the order of 4,000lbs, with differences in overall length of 30" give or take, but it's terribly wrong that the term "SCUT" could spread from 1,300lb machines to 1,700lbs, and length differences of maybe 10". Yeah, that makes a lot of sense....not.

In law school the joke is: If you have the facts on your side, pound on the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound on the law. If you have neither, pound on the desk. You're pounding on the desk.

It seems the only thing that bothers you is that maybe your favorite brand might lose sales to another brand because people are too dumb to look closely enough, and read stats carefully. Maybe we should get this thread title changed to "Let's watch Roger defend Kubota."

 

[94BULLITT]

A B series is larger than a J2023 or Boomer 25. Again, I don't know why you want to argue with the scale and tape measure, but you're simply wrong. Heck, you even repeated all the dimensions about how a 1 series is larger than a BX, and then said "I don't see any difference." Okay, why bother if you're going to point out the facts that one is larger, and simply disregard the facts?

B2650:

1,786lbs
Wheelbase 65.6"
Length 101.2" (they don't list with/wo 3pt).
Width 53.7"
Height 88.4"

J2023

Weight 1,565lbs
Wheelbase 59"
Length 103" w/3pt
Width 44.9"

Those two machines aren't the same size....period.

Where did I ever compare the J2023 to the B2650? The B2650 is larger. I said the J2023/Boomer25 is the same size as the B2320, 2620, 2920 and the JD 2320 and 2520. You have repeatedly said you have seen the tractors in question so why were you comparing it to a B2650?

And it's your job to save them from themselves?

I don't like seeing people be misled.

Because all those machines aren't the identical size...some are a bit larger, and some a bit smaller. There is no accepted standard for what constitutes a SCUT, and the machines you are SO upset about are only slightly larger than the machines you think fit the mould.

The Kubota BX, JD 1 series, Kioti CS2410, and Yanmar SC2400 are all very close in size and are SCUTs. The slightly larger machines are than a SCUT are a compact tractor. "mould" I won't be childish like you and make fun of a typo.

The whole Class II versus Class IV compact thing appears to be Messicks' creation, not anything accepted, or even referenced, by the rest of the industry.

John Deere has a 1 series tractor, 2 series, 3 series, and 4 series. I wonder where the different class sizes would have come from????????? What class size would a 4 series be:scratchchin:

So, what you're saying is that it's okay for the term "CUT" to spread from 1,700lb machines to something on the order of 4,000lbs, with differences in overall length of 30" give or take, but it's terribly wrong that the term "SCUT" could spread from 1,300lb machines to 1,700lbs, and length differences of maybe 10". Yeah, that makes a lot of sense....not.

Again John Deere Kubota, and Kioti make tractors that are slightly larger than a 1 series, BX, or CS are called a compact. What is so hard to understand about this? When you step up to a B series, 2 series, or a Ck20 in a lot of ways they are 50% more tractor. This is how majority of tractor manufacturers size their tractors. You just feel the need to defend LS because they trying to call a compact a SCUT. I guess Kubota, JD, and Kioti are wrong too? A Kubota M5140 is only slightly larger than your R4047. Would it be fair for me to compare the 2?

In law school the joke is: If you have the facts on your side, pound on the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound on the law. If you have neither, pound on the desk. You're pounding on the desk.

I'm pounding on the facts. You are pounding on the desk. You proved you don't know what you are talking about when you compared the B2650 to the J2023. The fact is the J2023 is larger than what any reputable manufacturer would call a SCUT.

It seems the only thing that bothers you is that maybe your favorite brand might lose sales to another brand because people are too dumb to look closely enough, and read stats carefully. Maybe we should get this thread title changed to "Let's watch Roger defend Kubota."

Why would I care if Kubota lost a sale? It is not any money out of my pocket. A better title would be "Bart thinks he is never wrong."

 

[GManBart]

Where did I ever compare the J2023 to the B2650? The B2650 is larger. I said the J2023/Boomer25 is the same size as the B2320, 2620, 2920 and the JD 2320 and 2520. You have repeatedly said you have seen the tractors in question so why were you comparing it to a B2650?

Wrong (again). You simply said "B series"....go read what you wrote a few posts back: "A kubota B series is the same size as the J2023 and the Boomer 25 but it has a 3 range hydro." You never narrowed it down to just certain models.

I don't like seeing people be misled.

Nobody is being misled. They can look at the machines, and compare printed specs. If they like the specs on one, and it doesn't look too big to their eye, they get something they like....perfect ending. If they have questions about why one might have better specs, they can compare printed info, and/or ask the dealers.

The Kubota BX, JD 1 series, Kioti CS2410, and Yanmar SC2400 are all very close in size and are SCUTs. The slightly larger machines are than a SCUT are a compact tractor. "mould" I won't be childish like you and make fun of a typo.

I'm sorry to keep pointing this out to you, but you don't get to decide what a SCUT is, or isn't. You have an opinion....super, so do many other people. So you'll point out what you think is a typo, but you won't point it out, because that would be childish? Oh, BTW, "mould" isn't a typo, it's one of two correct spellings for an object that you pour molten metal into. So, wrong....yet again.

John Deere has a 1 series tractor, 2 series, 3 series, and 4 series. I wonder where the different class sizes would have come from????????? What class size would a 4 series be:scratchchin:

Funny, but I see a general trend....1 series have PTO outputs in the teens. 2 series have PTO outputs in the 20s. 3 series have PTO outputs in the 30s. 4 series have PTO outputs in the 4s. Coincidence? Nah...couldn't be.

Again John Deere Kubota, and Kioti make tractors that are slightly larger than a 1 series, BX, or CS are called a compact. What is so hard to understand about this? When you step up to a B series, 2 series, or a Ck20 in a lot of ways they are 50% more tractor. This is how majority of tractor manufacturers size their tractors. You just feel the need to defend LS because they trying to call a compact a SCUT. I guess Kubota, JD, and Kioti are wrong too? A Kubota M5140 is only slightly larger than your R4047. Would it be fair for me to compare the 2?

Oh, so this is suddenly about defending LS? Wait, there wasn't a thread that went on, and on, and on, with you making the exact same argument about the Mahindra Max series? Remember that? You mentioned it here again with the "how many people compare a BX to a Max" comment.

Put whatever name you want on it, a 1,565lb tractor like the Boomer 25, or LS J, or Mahindra Max, is a SCUT in my opinion. Yes, it's on the large size of the SCUT group, but it's still not a CUT. If I can lift it with my CUT, it's a SCUT.

Sure, you could compare my 4047 to an M5140 and all anybody would say is that the M5140 is larger, heaver (20% more), and more capable....it should be. Big deal. My Massey is considered a Utility tractor, but it's not much bigger than my LS....again, big deal, I knew what I was looking at, and didn't rely on Tractor Data to tell me whether it looked too big to my eye or not.

I'm pounding on the facts. You are pounding on the desk. You proved you don't know what you are talking about when you compared the B2650 to the J2023. The fact is the J2023 is larger than what any reputable manufacturer would call a SCUT.

If you were pounding on the facts you wouldn't disregard them immediately after you list them. Again, you just said "B series" and didn't list which models....you know, you're the one being so particular about what is, and what isn't a SCUT, you'd think you'd be more specific.

Oh yes, the "reputable brand" thing. If you weren't so transparent in your brand hatred, it wouldn't be nearly as much fun. LS calls the J series "Small Chassis 4wd", they don't use the term SCUT. So, you're wrong (yet again!) to suggest they're marketing them as a "SCUT"....hard to argue they aren't a "small chassis" but I'm sure you'll find a way.

Why would I care if Kubota lost a sale? It is not any money out of my pocket.

Really? It sure seems like it is.

A better title would be "Bart thinks he is never wrong."

Funny, but earlier in this thread I got a model number mixed up, and someone corrected me....I admitted I was mistaken. Then I incorrectly said one of the Deere models was shipped here, when only the engine is, and I admitted it. So, I guess it's still "Roger defends Kubota."

Hey, I'll be driving right through your area next week....don't worry, I don't expect a dinner invite, or anything. :thumbsup:

 

[94BULLITT]

Wrong (again). You simply said "B series"....go read what you wrote a few posts back: "A kubota B series is the same size as the J2023 and the Boomer 25 but it has a 3 range hydro." You never narrowed it down to just certain models.

I have mentioned the B2620. I also posted a chart and linked a website with the model mentioned.

Nobody is being misled. They can look at the machines, and compare printed specs. If they like the specs on one, and it doesn't look too big to their eye, they get something they like....perfect ending. If they have questions about why one might have better specs, they can compare printed info, and/or ask the dealers.

Most dealers will tell them that tractor is comparable to a BX or 1 series.

Funny, but I see a general trend....1 series have PTO outputs in the teens. 2 series have PTO outputs in the 20s. 3 series have PTO outputs in the 30s. 4 series have PTO outputs in the 4s. Coincidence? Nah...couldn't be.

I don't think so.

JD 2320- 18 PTO HP
JD 3005 27.5HP 23.5 PTO HP
JD 4720 66HP 51 PTO
JD 5115M 115HP 100 PTO
JD 6210R 210hp

Oh, so this is suddenly about defending LS? Wait, there wasn't a thread that went on, and on, and on, with you making the exact same argument about the Mahindra Max series? Remember that? You mentioned it here again with the "how many people compare a BX to a Max" comment.

Your point?????????????

Put whatever name you want on it, a 1,565lb tractor like the Boomer 25, or LS J, or Mahindra Max, is a SCUT in my opinion. Yes, it's on the large size of the SCUT group, but it's still not a CUT. If I can lift it with my CUT, it's a SCUT.

That is a great way to size a tractor. So would a JD 3005 be a SCUT then? What about a Kubota B3350?

Oh yes, the "reputable brand" thing. If you weren't so transparent in your brand hatred, it wouldn't be nearly as much fun. LS calls the J series "Small Chassis 4wd", they don't use the term SCUT. So, you're wrong (yet again!) to suggest they're marketing them as a "SCUT"....hard to argue they aren't a "small chassis" but I'm sure you'll find a way.

LS does call the J sereis a SCUT. Sub-Compact Tractor LS J Series(J23, J27) Specification | LS Tractor Official Site I am starting to see a trend. Everytime you say I am wrong you are wrong:laughing::laughing:

NH calls it a SCUT too.

Compact-Tractors-and-Commercial-Mowers New Holland Boomer-Sub-Compact - Models, technical data and characteristics

Really? It sure seems like it is.

Even if i owned Kubota I would not care. I think I would have bigger things to worry about than losing 3 tractor sales a year to LS.

You have admitted the Boomer 25 is larger than a BX or 1 series. So why would you call it a SCUT?

 

[GManBart]

I have mentioned the B2620. I also posted a chart and linked a website with the model mentioned.

You may have mentioned a model earlier, but I quoted your exact words, and it was just "a B series" not any specific model.

Most dealers will tell them that tractor is comparable to a BX or 1 series.

You've been to most dealers in the country? Seriously, you know that for a fact? No, you're making that up (along with other stuff). So now it's that a dealer might be dishonest, and make a poor comparison that's favorable to their machine? Gasp, I've never heard of a dishonest salesman.

Still, if the customer doesn't notice a size difference, and likes the specs, they get something they like. You can whine all you want, but you can't change that fact....they aren't being deceived, or tricked...they can look at the models in person, and compare specs. Period, end of story.

I don't think so.

JD 2320- 18 PTO HP
JD 3005 27.5HP 23.5 PTO HP
JD 4720 66HP 51 PTO
JD 5115M 115HP 100 PTO
JD 6210R 210hp

We were talking about SCUTS, and CUTs....so the 5 and six series don't apply. That even further makes the point you're theory about classes is silly. The 5 and 6 series should start over with their own set of numbers if the CUT category is broken up into 1, 2, 3, and 4 class machines. I also didn't say the PTO HP was an absolute, but you went through the whole list, and found that only a couple fall outsize those general lines. 1 series are in the PTO hp teens. 2 series are in the 20s. 3 series are in the 30s. 4 series are in the 40s.

Your point?????????????

The point is it's not about LS, it's about you going ballistic any time there is a mention of SCUTs larger than what you think is proper, based upon what your favorite brand makes. If anybody disagrees with you, you go on and on that the other person is defending "their" brand. I own multiple brands (a fourth brand soon)....you seem to have only one brand....the one you're defending.

LS does call the J sereis a SCUT. Sub-Compact Tractor LS J Series(J23, J27) Specification | LS Tractor Official Site I am starting to see a trend. Everytime you say I am wrong you are wrong:laughing::laughing:

NH calls it a SCUT too.

Compact-Tractors-and-Commercial-Mowers New Holland Boomer-Sub-Compact - Models, technical data and characteristics

The LS USA website calls them small chassis tractors, and their brochure says "Small Compact" tractors. I don't know what the global marketing is, but I was pretty sure we were only talking about tractor sales in North America. I didn't say anything about what NH calls them.

J-Series « LS Tractor USA

http://lstractorusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/J-Series-Brochure.pdf

Even if i owned Kubota I would not care. I think I would have bigger things to worry about than losing 3 tractor sales a year to LS.

You have admitted the Boomer 25 is larger than a BX or 1 series. So why would you call it a SCUT?

Well, you don't own Kubota, but you sure do seem to care...because you've spent countless hours beating this dead horse about all the machines that you don't think are SCUTs, and other people do.

I have said over, and over that a Boomer 25 and 1 series are essentially the same size....too close in dimensions to mean anything. I would call both a SCUT because they're smaller than what a traditional CUT is. If I can lift it with the FEL of my CUT, it's a SCUT, 2-range hydros help reinforce that position...a CUT would have a 3-range hydro.

You can go on arguing with tape measures and scales all you want, but at the end of all the whining and gnashing of teeth, your basic premise is flawed. Nobody is being misled or tricked. They can look with their own eyes (heck, bring a tape measure), and read the specs of any machine they're interested in. If they like what they see, and are happy with the specs, it really doesn't matter what label someone on the internet thinks it should be under.