skidding on black ice

[Egon]

The real trick on a black ice skid is to initiate a 360 spin and be able to pull out at the right time!:thumbsup:

 

[MattLynch]

The real trick on a black ice skid is to initiate a 360 spin and be able to pull out at the right time!:thumbsup:

You know when you are from Nova Scotia when....

 

[Looking4new]

Thread is about " Black Ice " I doubt anyone north of Mason Dixen line even truly know what it is. Only happens about evey 5 or 7 years. ABS, 4 by 4
Lockers front and rear. None of that will help in true black ice. IMO

So by your statement, you assume that 'black ice' doesn't happen up here? IMHO I think you are sadly mistaken. It happens a lot more than you think.

 

[daugen]

yeah, you guys are snowed in so much up there you have plenty of time to watch Bullitt, Dukes of Hazzard or Gone in 30 seconds, and
have time to practice your style...

 

[Looking4new]

yeah, you guys are snowed in so much up there you have plenty of time to watch Bullitt, Dukes of Hazzard or Gone in 30 seconds, and
have time to practice your style...

No TV for me. 25" of snow this winter , another inch tonite and two tomorrow. Total for the winter 28". That sucks! I drove down to the big smoke (Toronto) yesterday morning on half frozen wet roads (not quite black ice, but not far from it). coming back up the snow was melting and running across the otherwise dry roads, making puddles and wet spots that if not addressed at nightfall would make for some interesting driving.

 

[Egon]

You know when you are from Nova Scotia when....[/QUOTE
Naw, I learned that in Alberta!

 

[Diamondpilot]

No TV for me. 25" of snow this winter , another inch tonite and two tomorrow. Total for the winter 28". That sucks! I drove down to the big smoke (Toronto) yesterday morning on half frozen wet roads (not quite black ice, but not far from it). coming back up the snow was melting and running across the otherwise dry roads, making puddles and wet spots that if not addressed at nightfall would make for some interesting driving.

We've had 65" here of the white stuff in Indianapolis this year. About 12" more I would guess where I live 45 minutes North East.

Chris

 

[daugen]

it's always important to have credible experience to apply.
Like this guy...now do you think he has ABS?

Drifting a 70-mph mobility scooter on ice - Autoweek

 

[SPYDERLK]

It looks like the newest vehicle in that test was a 1995. I wonder if ABS has come further since then? I'm enjoying this discussion, since I don't personally have a clue if this is true, but have always assumed ABS would be better on any type surface.

It seems it could be, but that would require that only skidding wheels be pulsed. If one wheel skids and you lose braking duty cycle on all wheels the stop is likely to take longer. I dont know whether pulsing is done individually on all systems. I do know that my current abs Subaru does not stop as well as its non abs predecessor. Its a problem on gravel and in snow and rain.
larry

 

[xtn]

I take issue with these two directives:

1. Never touch the brakes!
2. Let off the throttle!

Firstly, there is pretty rarely NO traction whatsoever. Of course it's difficult to know exactly what miniscule amount of braking would work on whatever slick surface you just drove onto, but if your tires are still rolling straight ahead, the answer is "some."

Firstly Part B, if you're skidding on something with some small amount of friction, it may happen that your trajectory vector angle changes. This means you may be either going to hit that big tree or you may skid past it on the left. If you judge you cannot stop in time, but your current trajectory puts you on a path that doesn't hit the tree, pin the brakes to the floor now. This will help reduce the probability that your trajectory will change to one that intersects with the tree's location.

Secondly, you are more likely to retain or recover traction if your drive tires are spinning at the same speed they were before. Taking your foot off the throttle, most especially if you have a manual transmission, does not achieve that. Go by rpms/sound of the engine. As you transition from traction to lack of traction, use that amount of throttle that keeps your engine speed (and therefor your drive tire speed) consistent. The exact amount of throttle needed may vary widely depending on conditions, and may be hard to achieve without icy-parking-lot practice, but if you can do it it's better than just jumping to no throttle at all.

xtn

 

[corl]

A car spins out in front of you. You want to not hit it: where do you go if you still have traction but can't stop? My experience on the race track under mostly dry but under wet conditions too was to aim for where the car started spinning as it will most likely no longer be there when you get there. It worked a number of times for me and trying to guess left or right didn't work out so well. Not enough trials to apply statistics so take it for what it is. On ice the spinning car may go in a more straight direction so its easier to decide if you are still in control.

 

[JoeL4330]

The point of ABS is to allow you to steer the vehicle while braking, not to stop you in a shorter distance. There is a front-wheel brake bias (in US cars) as car slows and weight transfers forward ...that is, cars do most of their braking with the front wheels. Locking the (front) brakes may (may) stop you in the shortest distance, but you would have no steering control. Old-fangled pumping the brakes and new-fangled ABS achieve the same purpose ...alternately slowing you down and allowing you to steer. In the adverse conditions applicable in this discussion, the braking distance would be long, no matter what, and obstacles are likely closer than that, so the ability to avoidance-steer is quite desirable.

You got into the skid in the first place with a steering maneuver (or conceivably a wicked road camber and an attempt to accelerate in a RWD vehicle) and is usually the rear wheels that lose traction and, with the (however slight) polar moment you created when you steered, the back end slides ...a classic rear wheel skid. You want to steer out of the skid (mild steering correction to point the car in the direction in which you were traveling/want to go for the RW skid...) and you want to slow down. First things first, get off the gas while you engage the brakes (pumping if you don't have ABS or if you think you can outperform it). Among other things, engaging the brake is the no-brainer way to disengage cruise control if had been using it (why?).

In the article it advised depressing the clutch in a manual shift front-wheel-drive (or 4WD) ...so that engine braking is not fighting what you (and your ABS) are trying to do with the brakes. While the article didn't mention it, in the FWD/4WD case, once the tire speed has adjusted itself to your forward momentum, you might even re-apply a little power as you steer if you can gain traction and there are no imminent obstacles that require braking.

The discussion, so far, was only about ABS, and didn't mention Stability Control systems which figure out where you are trying to go (and at what speed) and apply a little helpful braking to the precise wheel(s) required to offset the inappropriate polar moment.

Aside from the physics, the helpful answer is practice, practice, practice ...under safe conditions, of course; and, there are advanced driving courses, some of which involve driving on a skid pad, which is quite a fun-learning experience. ...[too lengthy, I know]

 

[Egon]

Or you may purposely break the rear end loose to steer. (Especially on gravel)

It's great for making U turns!:thumbsup:

 

[MattLynch]

Or you may purposely break the rear end loose to steer. (Especially on gravel)

It's great for making U turns!:thumbsup:

That brings me back to when I was younger. Dirt road drifting was very popular when I was 16, before we had even heard of drifting. The memories of being sideways taking up a whole one lane fire road at 120km/h makes me wonder how I'm still alive!

 

[doxford jim]

I think it is fair to say that these days, a lot of drivers with 4x4 think they are invincible and end up being extremely careless when driving. The end results of course, are accidents, injuries and deaths.
Where I live we get lots of snow and cold temperatures. Gravel, salt and chemicals are used to make the roads driveable after the snow plows and graders have done their work.
I have a 4x4 truck and use it a lot during the winter, but keep my speed down to maybe 40mph or 70kph. Believe me, I can get into some serious situations at those speeds or less. Yet, while I am trying to drive carefully there is always someone less than two car lengths behind trying to pass. These people inevitably pass at much faster speed than I am driving. Most seem to do ok but once in a while a familiar vehicle (just passed me minutes ago) is in a deep roadside ditch. And no, I don't stop to help them - especially when they risk other peoples life and limbs.
I am pushing 70 and would like to get another ten years before I croak. Driving sensibly and for the situation in hand is the most important thing. I do have ABS and find them annoying - but I don't push things to the limit. The easiest thing to do is ease off on the throttle, slow down and take your time - ABS or not.
OPK - off my soap box for now.

 

[Looking4new]

I think it is fair to say that these days, a lot of drivers with 4x4 think they are invincible and end up being extremely careless when driving. The end results of course, are accidents, injuries and deaths.
Where I live we get lots of snow and cold temperatures. Gravel, salt and chemicals are used to make the roads driveable after the snow plows and graders have done their work.
I have a 4x4 truck and use it a lot during the winter, but keep my speed down to maybe 40mph or 70kph. Believe me, I can get into some serious situations at those speeds or less. Yet, while I am trying to drive carefully there is always someone less than two car lengths behind trying to pass. These people inevitably pass at much faster speed than I am driving. Most seem to do ok but once in a while a familiar vehicle (just passed me minutes ago) is in a deep roadside ditch. And no, I don't stop to help them - especially when they risk other peoples life and limbs.
I am pushing 70 and would like to get another ten years before I croak. Driving sensibly and for the situation in hand is the most important thing. I do have ABS and find them annoying - but I don't push things to the limit. The easiest thing to do is ease off on the throttle, slow down and take your time - ABS or not.
OPK - off my soap box for now.

You and me both right down to the age! My ABS relay is in my glovebox.

 

[jejeosborne]

That brings me back to when I was younger. Dirt road drifting was very popular when I was 16, before we had even heard of drifting. The memories of being sideways taking up a whole one lane fire road at 120km/h makes me wonder how I'm still alive!

I am 45 so I am not sure what your definition of younger is. I still enjoy getting my rear wheel drive vehicles sideways and drift when the coast is clear. My jeep wrangler is so easy to initiate and a challenge to get straightend back out on the snowy roads. I find this fun as well as keeping my skill level sharpened. Again, I do this only when there is no traffic. I may be childish but still enjoy a good burnout once or twice a year as well when the pavement is dry.

 

[MattLynch]

Same here, but I started taking less risks on the road when I started racing on closed courses. I gave up racing to take over the family farm but I still enjoy driving sideways and having some fun once and a while!

 

[jimpen]

I got my license in 1983. And winter wasn't far behind it. Some lessons learned over the years:

• If it is winter weather and its coming either don't leave home or have a stay bag in the trunk to stay at the nearest hotel/motel/flop point. :talktothehand:
• Don't go exploring the countryside in the winter. Try to use only traveled roads that you have been down before.
• If it is a 4WD it doesn't make a danged bit of difference on ice, especially when trying to stop. :thumbdown:
• Don't touch the brakes. :duh:
• If it is a RWD automatic trans -- find how to drop it to first gear as fast as possible. The drag will generally get you going straight, and slow you down.
  • Sub note: Figure out if the going straight is where you want to be headed. If it is a choice between another person or vehicle and a mailbox, bye-bye mailbox.
  • Sub note: I know the roads I'm driving on and a ditch to another person/car will generally not cost me anything other than maybe a tow fee.
• If it is a manual trans -- the clutch is your friend.
• If it is FWD automatic you want to figure out how much weight you have in your trunk. That becomes centrifugal force in a sideways slide.
• Let any jacka** pass you that wants too. When you see them in a ditch, smile and wave as you drive by. :dance1:
• There is no such thing as too much following distance.

These are my general rules of thumb. I haven't been in a winter car accident. I had some close calls in the past, and these rules have saved my butt. So just throwing in my :2cents:.

 

[jimpen]

Oh, and another thing is carry a tow strap/chain fit for your vehicle. A 4WD may be able to get you out of the ditch, but many people don't carry them. If you have one it can save you some bucks.
Also have some cash in the car for the guy that helps you out.