skidding on black ice

/ skidding on black ice #21  
Wrong again. Snow buildup lubricates the tire interface with water (snow under a loaded tire is usually melted and refreezes as it exits. This phenom is what causes black ice to form. Its refrozen water. Gravel is the same as running over ball bearings. A rolling tire has the greatest traction (Mu coefficient of friction). The peak friction coefficient is achieved at only a few percent of slip. It takes wheel slip sensors, electronics and fast hydraulics to run this feedback control system at a frequency sufficient to improve stopping distance. Traction controls are just the same as ABS under acceleration. I suppose you believe your 0-60 times are better with traction control off, too. Measurements show its obviously otherwise. An electronically controlled automatic transmission with traction control will outdo your manual attempts, too. (I'm not talking about throttle intervention which kills fuel). The new systems know engine peak torque rpms based on transmission peak load rpms. This is also used to estimate the current weight of the vehicle for brake proportioning adjustments, which further decreases stopping distance under braking.

That ain't your grandfather's Buick...

Before spewing incorrect "knowledge" please do your research. There have been many tests to confirm what I have posted and it is common knowledge among anyone educated on the subject.
Anti-lock braking system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There is lots of good info out there, read it.
 
/ skidding on black ice
  • Thread Starter
#22  
gravel, sand and deep snow, ABS tends to increase braking distances. On these surfaces, locked wheels dig in and stop the vehicle more quickly. ABS prevents this from occurring. Some ABS calibrations reduce this problem by slowing the cycling time, thus letting the wheels repeatedly briefly lock and unlock. Some vehicle manufacturers provide an "off-road" button to turn ABS function off. The primary benefit of ABS on such surfaces is to increase the ability of the driver to maintain control of the car rather than go into a skid, though loss of control remains more likely on soft surfaces such as gravel or on slippery surfaces such as snow or ice. On a very slippery surface such as sheet ice or gravel, it is possible to lock multiple wheels at once, and this can defeat ABS (which relies on comparing all four wheels, and detecting individual wheels skidding). Availability of ABS relieves most drivers from learning threshold braking.

A June 1999 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) study found that ABS increased stopping distances on loose gravel by an average of 27.2 percent.[20]


interesting for sure. Ok, if you are an offroader, I can see where certain conditions might make ABS less helpful. But honestly, for 99% of conditions for 99% of us,
letting the ABS pulse 16 times a second or whatever is a lot better solution to keep the vehicle from skidding off the road.
 
/ skidding on black ice #23  
Thank you Mr. Lynch for posting that.

When I was referring to pumping the brakes, I meant only for stopping while going in a straight line, not turning. Nothing will help you once you start sliding on the ice during a turn. I had a 50k pound fire engine break loose on me once on snow. Not an experience I hope to try ever again. Luckily no traffic was coming in the cross street, because the engine slid through the intersection. And yes, the engine has the anti-locks system on the air brakes!

Because of the anitl-ocks in my 2008 Ford Expedition, I need to replace the grill guard. I was attempting to stop the truck earlier this winter on a snowy road, before making a right turn. Instead of slowing the vehicle, the ant-locks kicked in and the truck did not stop, but proceeded straight into a snow bank hiding a gaurd rail. I was only going 10mph before applying the brakes. Thankfully the grill gaurd took the hit or I would be replacing the whole front end of the truck.

By the way, I am an emergency vehicle driving instructor, and I have been driving in snow and bad weather for over 30 years.
 
/ skidding on black ice
  • Thread Starter
#24  
well, good info. But ABS is not defeatable in most cases so we need to know how to drive with it properly.
Yes there may be a rocker switch somewhere on a person's dash, but I defy you to find someone, other than us motorheads, who
knows what it means or what it does. they are going to slam on those brakes in a skid. BUT WAIT. Not in a FWD car. Need to get that word out...
 
/ skidding on black ice #25  
Correct. Any other thinking is just plain wrong!

Chris

I agree, 99.9% of the time the ABS will do better in ANY condition.

ABS does not stop faster, it simply allows the driver to maintain control during a panic stop. In fact non ABS brakes will stop faster in snow and gravel due to the snow/gravel piling up in front of the skidding tyres.

Wrong again. Snow buildup lubricates the tire interface with water (snow under a loaded tire is usually melted and refreezes as it exits. This phenom is what causes black ice to form. Its refrozen water. Gravel is the same as running over ball bearings. A rolling tire has the greatest traction (Mu coefficient of friction). The peak friction coefficient is achieved at only a few percent of slip. It takes wheel slip sensors, electronics and fast hydraulics to run this feedback control system at a frequency sufficient to improve stopping distance. Traction controls are just the same as ABS under acceleration. I suppose you believe your 0-60 times are better with traction control off, too. Measurements show its obviously otherwise. An electronically controlled automatic transmission with traction control will outdo your manual attempts, too. (I'm not talking about throttle intervention which kills fuel). The new systems know engine peak torque rpms based on transmission peak load rpms. This is also used to estimate the current weight of the vehicle for brake proportioning adjustments, which further decreases stopping distance under braking.

That ain't your grandfather's Buick...

Lol, this is a well known fact and is taught in an introduction to abs course.

I have spent a great deal of time off roading and racings in the dirt. I understand the importance of ABS as it allows people to maintain control and steer in a panic situation. I believe that it does NOT always produce a quicker stopping distance. Allowing the tire to rotate prevents it from digging in and finding the solid surface below. As was said, 99.9% of the time this isn't the scenerio but in snow, I hate ABS and know I can stop quicker without it. When I hit the brakes in my wifes Toyota Avalon with ABS in the snow, it appears as if the brakes are not even applied if I allow ABS to come into play. The NHTSA appears to agree.

Q&A REGARDING ABS BRAKES
 
/ skidding on black ice #26  
I'm betting those of you who think they can stop faster without the ABS would find out if they did some exact testing, they would find out they can't stop faster without it. When you find yourself sliding and you don't think the ABS helping, it probably because there isn't any traction available and you are driving to fast. Don't blame the ABS for this. Its happened to me before and I can understand the thinking behind it but its wrong.
 
/ skidding on black ice #28  
I'm betting those of you who think they can stop faster without the ABS would find out if they did some exact testing, they would find out they can't stop faster without it. When you find yourself sliding and you don't think the ABS helping, it probably because there isn't any traction available and you are driving to fast. Don't blame the ABS for this. Its happened to me before and I can understand the thinking behind it but its wrong.

On gravel and snow, you might be surprised yourself from some "exact testing". Tires rolling on top of marbles vs pushing them out of the way makes complete logic to me. Same is true about traction control not moving mud or gravel out of the way to get something solid.

Here is some "exact testing" for those who think ABS is all that.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/Esv/esv16/98S2W36.PDF
 
/ skidding on black ice #29  
Before spewing incorrect "knowledge" please do your research. There have been many tests to confirm what I have posted and it is common knowledge among anyone educated on the subject.
Anti-lock braking system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There is lots of good info out there, read it.

You are hilarious ! I worked in GM's Vehicle Dynamics Department for almost 40 years. The research has been done, the facts written and published, even tried in Courts all over the world. And ANYONE can post on Wikipedia. The reason ABS is REQUIRED on most vehicles is because there are stopping distance requirements with wet and dry surface performance specifications (FMVSS Mandate 105).

The Courts ALWAYS rule that claims from self-educated experts are 'anecdotal'. That means it's basically a storied claim not supported by any sort of controlled test results. I've been in courtrooms to see this testimony stricken from the record because it has no scientific merit. Even NHTSA has to respond to such claims and correct them.
All the vehicle manufacturers have large departments devoted to testing, data collection and driver training for traction, braking and now even stability control mechanisms.

I have all the data, testing and driving experience I need now in retirement for all the vehicles I own. And several S.A.E. papers authored to prove it. And, I'm on LinkedIn where my resume bares it all. So don't muddy the waters with anecdotal claims, Its bad for your health. Until you've operated a traction trailer on concrete, asphalt, wet, dry, snow, gravel and mud coated surfaces, you have no claims to fame. Oh, by the way, next time you fly in a commercial aircraft, tell the pilot when you board that you don't believe ABS should be enabled on an ice covered runway. Then listen really carefully to their reply.
 
/ skidding on black ice #30  
On gravel and snow, you might be surprised yourself from some "exact testing". Tires rolling on top of marbles vs pushing them out of the way makes complete logic to me. Same is true about traction control not moving mud or gravel out of the way to get something solid.

Here is some "exact testing" for those who think ABS is all that.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/Esv/esv16/98S2W36.PDF

It looks like the newest vehicle in that test was a 1995. I wonder if ABS has come further since then? I'm enjoying this discussion, since I don't personally have a clue if this is true, but have always assumed ABS would be better on any type surface.
 
/ skidding on black ice #31  
You are hilarious ! I worked in GM's Vehicle Dynamics Department for almost 40 years. The research has been done, the facts written and published, even tried in Courts all over the world. And ANYONE can post on Wikipedia. The reason ABS is REQUIRED on most vehicles is because there are stopping distance requirements with wet and dry surface performance specifications (FMVSS Mandate 105).

The Courts ALWAYS rule that claims from self-educated experts are 'anecdotal'. That means it's basically a storied claim not supported by any sort of controlled test results. I've been in courtrooms to see this testimony stricken from the record because it has no scientific merit. Even NHTSA has to respond to such claims and correct them.
All the vehicle manufacturers have large departments devoted to testing, data collection and driver training for traction, braking and now even stability control mechanisms.

I have all the data, testing and driving experience I need now in retirement for all the vehicles I own. And several S.A.E. papers authored to prove it. And, I'm on LinkedIn where my resume bares it all. So don't muddy the waters with anecdotal claims, Its bad for your health. Until you've operated a traction trailer on concrete, asphalt, wet, dry, snow, gravel and mud coated surfaces, you have no claims to fame. Oh, by the way, next time you fly in a commercial aircraft, tell the pilot when you board that you don't believe ABS should be enabled on an ice covered runway. Then listen really carefully to their reply.

ABS can stop faster on ice and wet pavement. I will not argue that, and I will not argue against the benefits of abs but I stand by what I said. You may have a background in an automotive company, but so do I. I also spent a few years road racing and did a little bit of rally racing.

Try telling a rally racer they can stop faster on gravel with abs!
 
/ skidding on black ice #33  
The problem here is not ABS. It's LAWYERS, NHTSA, Ralph Nader, and all the other safety nazis mandating all this "safety" crap on the vehicles we buy today. Why should I be forced to buy a work truck with multiple air bags, ABS and other crap I do NOT want. Why can't i opt out of these "features" and save some cash? I know I'm not the only one that feels this way.

I will however limit my rant here, or I may never get away from this keyboard!

Be safe all!

And remember to pull over AND stop when you see an emergency vehicle approaching (from back or front)! You never know who's loved one is depending upon the responding vehicle you are delaying!
 
/ skidding on black ice #34  
The problem here is not ABS. It's LAWYERS, NHTSA, Ralph Nader, and all the other safety nazis mandating all this "safety" crap on the vehicles we buy today. Why should I be forced to buy a work truck with multiple air bags, ABS and other crap I do NOT want. Why can't i opt out of these "features" and save some cash? I know I'm not the only one that feels this way.

I agree with some of your concerns but not those that could impact the safety of others. ABS saves lives no doubt, it may not be just yours but an innocent person in another vehicle. Vehicles have to be made "dummy" proof too for those who don't handle emergency situations well which is a good argument for making stability control standard as well. Your work truck may never see the road but when you sell it, who knows the future of the vehicle.
 
/ skidding on black ice #35  
Yeah the data is for 18 year old vehicles. I also wonder if the average driver would do as well as the test driver for those results.
 
/ skidding on black ice
  • Thread Starter
#36  
I have a spare anchor from my old boat. Wonder if I could rig that up on my rear bumper to drop when needed?
Maybe the ABS could tell it which side to drop on. Got that all figured out. :rolleyes:
gotta run, have to file those patents.
 
/ skidding on black ice #37  
ABS won't work if you don't have enough following distance in the first place.
ABS won't work if you're sliding sideways.
ABS won't work if the vehicle is floating. This doesn't mean just in water, but also in deep mud or snow where the undercarriage is in contact with the material (you're sliding on the belly then.) Of course that usually means you're stuck, not sliding out of control.
ABS won't work if the vehicle's wheels are not in contact with anything. (See above.)
ABS won't work if someone else hits you instead.

The subject of the thread was skidding on black ice. I assumed it was about what to do when you're already in the dog house. PREVENTING it in the first place should be your goal, and slowing down in the first place is the number one method. Keeping a big enough following distance is number two. And keeping a big enough buffer distance from everything and everyone else is number three.
 
/ skidding on black ice #38  
As some people have noted ABS computers have come a long ways in 15 years. Many disable or modify their pattern of operation at low speed and low temperatures now.

I think a lot of people forget what sliding without abs feels like and blame the abs. I alternate between abs and non-abs vehicles all winter and you know what one always stops faster every single time? The one with the good snow tires on it. ABS can't do anything with poor tires and neither can non-abs.

BTW the advice of lifting off the throttle suddenly isn't the best, some cars have transmission braking on their automatics and in a fwd its a good way to lose it. Same as dumping the clutch in a fwd standard, especially if the car is still cold this leads to slight braking on the front wheels and loss of control on ice. If you can keep at very close to neutral ie no acceleration perfect coasting you are fine and can even recover in a mild spin. If you have dumped the clutch or dropped off the gas it is really hard to match the tire speed close enough to recover control from mild spin on ice. At that point all you can do is get the fronts pointed as close to the correct angle as possible for when you come off the ice.
 
/ skidding on black ice #39  
Thread is about " Black Ice " I doubt anyone north of Mason Dixen line even truly know what it is. Only happens about evey 5 or 7 years. ABS, 4 by 4
Lockers front and rear. None of that will help in true black ice. IMO
 
/ skidding on black ice #40  
Black ice happens here quite frequently, good studded tyres help a lot.
 

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