skidding on black ice

[daugen]

How do I recover from a black ice skid in a front-wheel, rear-wheel or all-wheel drive car? | Erie Insurance

useful article from Erie Insurance, mostly same old but the front wheel drive
part was interesting to me. No power, no brakes. Not an intuitive response.

and the part about pushing in the clutch of a manual trans.
a few good tidbits.

scary stuff when your steering wheel feels like it fell off the shaft from how little feedback you are getting back...
As a not proud member of the 360 ciub, did it ages ago(age 22?) in an old Porsche 356SC, boy that tail liked to come out, but at
at least I did it in slush, not stupid driving on dry pavement. And when those old VW's let go, they really let go...
I know, I know, why didn't I keep that car I bought for $1700 and sold for $1500...after it broke down, again, and left me stranded in dense traffic,
and a big bill to pay by the German car surgeon. 6 foot long wire clutch cables. It had to go, I was young and poor and it sure wasn't the car for me. But when the big boss mentions that his son in law really needed to sell his Porsche, well...what a sucker I was. Hey, learning experience. Gorgeous off white bathtub coupe.

Back to the story, which is relevant because most of us drive a vehicle with sophisticated ABS and likely a whole lot more defensive nanny devices.
Like the ones that brake one rear tire or the other to compensate for a skid. It thinks while you are still trying to think.

we get very little practice in this, which is good and bad. But after this winter, yikes, I bet all our car insurance rates are going to go up a little.

There are so many videos on YouTube of folks loosing control and spinning out on the interstate, to awful consequences.
Let's do our best not to be one. Good Luck for sure.

and if we could only avoid those spinning out and headed right at us...:shocked:

 

[newbury]

we get very little practice in this, which is good and bad. But after this winter, yikes, I bet all our car insurance rates are going to go up a little.

And therein lies the problem.

I only took "drivers ed" once, in the summer. No preparation for watching your tail come around and get in front of you and recover.

But I also grew up in Northern Vermont and had plenty of chances to get out on the ice, get some speed up slam on the brakes and recover.

Maybe they should issue licenses with stamps for driving in icy conditions.

 

[VTFireftr]

Anit-lock brakes SUCK on snow and ice. They actually INCREASE your stopping distance on these surfaces.

If you find yourself sliiding on snow or ice, PUMP your brake pedal rapidly (even with anti-locks). This will allow you to defeat the anti-lock computer, and let snmow build up in front of your tires and allow you to stop faster, and in a shorter distance.

I hate it when insurance companies don't tell the truth about anti-locks.

 

[daugen]

I hate it when insurance companies don't tell the truth about anti-locks.[/QUOTE]

I follow you on snow, and going straight. Assuming a good driver who knows his/her vehicle's capability. Not sure your advice holds true on curves and sheet ice.
I drove firetrucks for six years in the winter...but we never got that much ice here. Often the township plow truck would go in front of the
first out engines plowing and sanding in front of us, if it was really bad out.

I just can't envision how pumping your brakes on glare ice is going to do anything good...

 

[Tomtint]

It is impossible to have complete control if you unexpectedly hit black ice. Once a spin starts, you will likely become a victim of physics. When I was I drivers ed, there was no training for such a situation. Only warnings about what black ice is and when it occurs. Fortunately I had a friend who took me into a vacant parking lot with 2-3" of snow on it and taught me how to control a car when it goes I to a slide. .. Biggest lesson... Don't touch the breaks and don't panic. If anyone has the option to take a kid who is learning to drive, into the same type lot, I believe if is a great help.

 

[Looking4new]

Black ice.......back off the throttle and steer straight. Don't bother trying to turn, don't try to slow down suddenly, just steer straight and drive. Know your vehicle, inside out and backwards. So well that you know what it will do IF you should get a little sideways, that way you will know exactly how to get straight again. It will be reflex action. Skid school is your friend.
!!DO NOT TOUCH YOUR BRAKES!!

 

[cqaigy2]

Black ice.......back off the throttle and steer straight. Don't bother trying to turn, don't try to slow down suddenly, just steer straight and drive. Know your vehicle, inside out and backwards. So well that you know what it will do IF you should get a little sideways, that way you will know exactly how to get straight again. It will be reflex action. Skid school is your friend.
!!DO NOT TOUCH YOUR BRAKES!!

That's been my experience with black ice too. Dont touch the brakes! And it really does help if you know what your vehicle feels like, when skidding in different directions, including backwards, it's just hard to get the experience in a controlled/legal environment.

 

[zzvyb6]

The advise about pumping your brakes on an ABS vehicle is ridiculous. The ABS controller finds the best (lowest) wheel slip tolerance that your tires can develop. Every time you 'pump' your brake pedal you disengage the ABS controller and braking action has to start all over, ABS or not. Tests. that you can run yourself show ABS stops more quickly that even a trained driver EVERY time: Dry, wet, snow, gravel and ice.

The key to maintaining control is to NOT change the state of the forces affecting the car: Don't drop the throttle (causes weight transfer off the back wheels, Hold the steering wheel tight (On ice, tires produce only a low, constant cornering force, not one proportional to steer angle), and look ahead to see where the problems occur before you have to act on it. Use full brake pressure to engage the ABS asap. It will try to help you through the spin. Once its engaged, a LITTLE steering can be attempted, but don't thrash it around. Tires don't like sudden changes in steering.

The use of real SNOW and ICE tires (I use Bridgestone Blizzaks on all my vehicles) is a great safety advantage. The problem will ne that he vehicle behind you can not be able to stop or steer as well as you can.

Pumping the brake pedal is only an option if you blow through a master cylinder seal or burst a brake line. The you need to learn how to apply the 'parking' brake without spinning the vehicle. Once you lock up the rears, you will spin out and certainly crash.

Think you know better than this? Go practice in a parking lot or out on a lake with some cones.

 

[Looking4new]

Once you get past the 45 degree mark from the straight ahead direction you were traveling in, it is almost impossible to correct and you might as well try to head for a soft spot to land. A snow bank works good for this.

I started to lose my Jeep on the 4 lane highway, the road surface looked good (it wasn't). Traffic was traveling at 70 mph. Me too. The paved shoulder had snow on it. The Jeep had just started to kick out sideways to the right, the traffic around me saw this and slowed down, I backed off the throttle a little and steered to the right to correct the skid and when it started to come back to straight I headed for the paved shoulder to get some traction on the snow. Ran down the paved shoulder for about 1/4 mile all the time slowing down just a little from 70 to about 50, reached down and cracked it into 4wd and accelerated (with a Jeep Wrangler TJ you can do this no harm no foul). Traffic and I resumed our traveling I stayed at 60 for the rest of the trip.

The shorter the wheelbase, the faster they will spin out. The longer the wheelbase the harder it is to be able to recognize when you are just going into a skid.

 

[dodge man]

I agree, 99.9% of the time the ABS will do better in ANY condition.

 

[Looking4new]

ABS works good on my 5 axle semi trailer. I wonder how good it will be on my new set of B trains.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I agree, 99.9% of the time the ABS will do better in ANY condition.

Correct. Any other thinking is just plain wrong!

Chris

 

[Dr_Zinj]

It doesn't matter if it's black ice, glaze, refrozen runoff, hard pack, etc.; you're moving, and you've lost traction.

(1) Take your foot off the accelerator. It's not going to do you any good, regardless of whether you're driving a rear wheel, front wheel, 4 wheel, or all wheel vehicle.
(2) Steer in the direction of the skid. The idea is to get the steering tires rotating at the same speed the vehicle is moving at. That gives the tires the greatest contact time with any one piece of the surface and allows you to regain partial traction, even on ice.
(3) Evaluate your surroundings, fast. If you don't know your options, you can't make decisions.
(4) Prioritize your collision options. Driving off a cliff is the probably the worst thing, and shouldn't be chosen under nearly any circumstance. Striking a fixed, immovable object is the worst thing you can chose to do. (Concrete bridge abutments, trees, boulders, etc. Front ending a vehicle heading toward you is second. Glancing blow approaching each other, rear ending one, striking a moveable object, or possibly going into a lake or river are third. Glancing blow in passing is fourth. Running off into a field of snow is fifth. If people are what you're going to hit, then hit anything else but the people. And if you can't avoid them, hit as few as possible.
(5) Pray.

The best thing to do is practice doing deliberate skids and spins and recoveries in an empty lot with no curbs or things to run into. Play "What if" while driving. Plan ahead for what you would do under various circumstances. Make sure you have insurance, and your insurance card in the car. Cell phone or CB if you still have one.

 

[corl]

I have always enjoyed finding my cars limits on a snow covered parking lot. Knowing your car and experiencing sliding to the point of relative comfort (not white knuckled grip on the steering wheel) will provide the best insurance. I raced SCCA for a number of years and experienced dry and wet weather loss of traction at higher speeds. It is a learned experience. Hard to correct if you have never experienced it before. If you are going to hit something it is best to hit it backwards and lean hard into the backrest and headrest just before you hit. If you go into something forward remember to take your hands off the steering wheel just before you hit - can save a broken wrist etc. I always had my best races in the wet as I passed other competitors that had spun off course. Did slide off course into the snow once at VIR during practice.

 

[MattLynch]

ABS does not stop faster, it simply allows the driver to maintain control during a panic stop. In fact non ABS brakes will stop faster in snow and gravel due to the snow/gravel piling up in front of the skidding tyres.

 

[zzvyb6]

ABS does not stop faster, it simply allows the driver to maintain control during a panic stop. In fact non ABS brakes will stop faster in snow and gravel due to the snow/gravel piling up in front of the skidding tyres.

Wrong again. Snow buildup lubricates the tire interface with water (snow under a loaded tire is usually melted and refreezes as it exits. This phenom is what causes black ice to form. Its refrozen water. Gravel is the same as running over ball bearings. A rolling tire has the greatest traction (Mu coefficient of friction). The peak friction coefficient is achieved at only a few percent of slip. It takes wheel slip sensors, electronics and fast hydraulics to run this feedback control system at a frequency sufficient to improve stopping distance. Traction controls are just the same as ABS under acceleration. I suppose you believe your 0-60 times are better with traction control off, too. Measurements show its obviously otherwise. An electronically controlled automatic transmission with traction control will outdo your manual attempts, too. (I'm not talking about throttle intervention which kills fuel). The new systems know engine peak torque rpms based on transmission peak load rpms. This is also used to estimate the current weight of the vehicle for brake proportioning adjustments, which further decreases stopping distance under braking.

That ain't your grandfather's Buick...

 

[zzvyb6]

BTW: I once had to prove to a non-engineering designer that adding a lot of toe-in on a 4wheel steer vehicle stopped longer that one with standard settings. He claimed that the 'snow plowing effect' of adding toe-in (or out) improved stopping distance. It was 25% worse. (No he didn't get the patent awarded). But you can imagine the theories that abound, especially from people who take Oprah or Dr. Oz too seriously.

 

[jel1988]

Over the last little while I have weathered two ice storms in SC, my recommendation is to stay off the roads. The last ice storm the local new was interviewing drivers, the first was a lady she stated when she felt her vehicle start to slide she put them brakes right to the floor, they panned over to her SUV laying on its side. The second driver stated he had 4 wheel drive on his Jeep and that ice wasn't going to slow him down (neither would his brakes). The news casters gave their bit by telling everyone to steer into the skid yadda yadda yadda, not one of them suggested to slow down or stay home as SCDOT just doesn't have enough salters, briners to cover 1% of roads in the area if fact they couldn't even keep the Ravenel bridge in Charleston open with all of their equipment. When there is ice on the roads where people have little to no experience with it, if you value your life stay put.

 

[aczlan]

When there is ice on the roads where people have little to no experience with it, if you value your life stay put.

Yep. Even if you can drive in it, the idiots around you cant and they will hit you when they lose control.

Aaron Z

 

[MattLynch]

Lol, this is a well known fact and is taught in an introduction to abs course.