Should I take over the family farm? Please advise

[svenlylethor]

Do you like, just stand or hate your current job/career?

Is your current job/career secure or shaky?

Can YOU make a living on the small family farm?

If the city is growing and planting houses on farm land, will you be able to grow the farm either by buying new acreage or renting?

Have you done a business plan on how you expect to make money on the family farm? The trend in farming seems to be for the farms to grow to giant size with medium size farms going away. Smaller farms are popping up with very specific markets like goat cheese making, CSA, farm tourism/U Pick Its, etc.

Will working the family farm be more or less stressful than your current job/career?

You said you don't really want to live in UT. Will the positives of moving back to the farm out weigh living in UT? Will you eventually regret moving back to UT?

What do YOU really want to DO with YOUR life? Think long and hard about that question.

The positives I see is that you want to farm and that your parents are going to need help.

It sounds like you are at a cross road in life with this decision. Take time to think it through very carefully. Whatever you do decide, do not ever second guess the decision. When you make the decision, make sure that you are as confident with the decision as best you can be, move forward and don't look back.

Later,
Dan

I like the way you think.

I like my job but I think I'll be ready to start another one in the next year... right now it's either working internationally, working for a large corporation like John deere or AGCO, getting an MBA, or settling back home with a job and the farm on the side.

I don't think I could make a living on the farm by itself but I'd have a full-time job. 80 acres with our equipment isn't too hard to farm IMO. I do think about doing something different with our farm though. I think about making it certified organic, maybe doing a CSA. Not sure if farm tourism would work on our land. I see alfalfa as the easiest option because of the profit margins and amount of work. livestock is a much bigger commitment. Working extra in the fields during the summer and not working in the winter is much easier than handling both livestock and fields.

 

[dodge man]

I'm going to be honest and it may sound a little brutal. It sounds like you want to get out of the big city so you can play farmer. You think you can do the farm thing better than your dad. You have said a few things that lead me to believe this. He let the farm go to crap, he is not detail oriented, he doesn't maintain things like he should etc. Well he is probably getting old and he just does what he feels like. I'd say don't underestimate you dads and the other local farmers business savvy. They are probably smarter than you think and I don't think a slick website is going to do much for you in farm country. Everybody can have a slick website if you want.

I don't farm at all but my inlaws do and I live in the heart of some of the best farm ground in the world. I work with farmers some through my job. I have a co-worker who farms part time and he is farming several hundred acres. Around here 80 acres isn't even enough ground to own a real farm tractor.

If you want to move, do it for the right reasons, like you want to go back to Utah, live in a more rural area, be close to your parents, just don't kid yourself on making any money farming.

 

[ovrszd]

You won't make a living that you'll be satisfied with on 80 acres. So don't go there thinking you can give up the fulltime job. Ain't happening.

As someone else mentioned, if you heart were truly in this you probably wouldn't have left the area in the beginning.

Lastly, your folks have reminded you that they will probably sell it off in 10-15 years. If you go, buy it from them now and offer them the place to live on. Then they are taken care of and your personal time and money investment is also taken care of. My siblings and I did that 20 years ago. We have 160 acres. My Mom is still alive at 93. Had to buy my Sister out two years ago. My Brother and I still share the farm. It generates zero income for us. Takes everything it generates to keep it up and take care of Mom.

My Brother is not healthy and I'll probably have to buy his heirs out when he's gone. All the income our farm will ever generate in the rest of my lifetime will be eaten up to just keep it going and pay for it.

Don't go there thinking you are gonna make a living. You are not. Go there to be with your parents and take care of them regardless what the entails, or don't go.

 

[svenlylethor]

It is a lifestyle decision that you need to make for yourself. A friend once asked me if I worked as much as I do because I wanted to be the richest guy in the graveyard. This alone made me think a bit different about what's really important in my life. If your international friends are real friends, living on a farm in Utah would not be a problem, many would likely be envious.

LOL good quote. A lot of my friends are envious. I show them pictures and talk about the farm all the time. I also wear a lot of exotic cowboy boots, belt buckles, etc mixed with my urban style wear. I always represent my home. You should see the looks I get in Boston. (That's where I live). Glad to see I'm not the only farmer out here!

 

[downslope]

Do you have siblings? What will happen to the farm holdings when both of your parents pass; will the assets need to be liquidated to satisfy other heirs, debts or taxes, or will everything pass to you anyway? Do your parents have an estate plan in place?

Here's what I would do if you can afford it and your parents are agreeable: Purchase the farm from them and have them take back a significant mortgage which you can afford to pay from your full-time job income. Offer them a little more than the going interest rate on the mortgage and maybe they give you a break on the price and they retain a life estate in the property. You will realize some tax deduction advantages, can even run the farm at a loss for several years, or rent to someone else, and they will be secure.

Assuming you are unmarried, NOW is the time to do it. You have the income and also some free time to handle the farm operation in some way and give them assistance in dealing with doctors, hospitals and home health care, etc.

Being in a developing area, if you don't make the purchase now you probably won't be able to afford in the future.

One thing I would not do is terminate all outside employment and try to go straight back into farming. Keep your east coast job until you can find similar secure and rewarding employment near your parents. A lot of varied opportunities can open up for an 80 acre farm near an urbanizing/suburban area, some of which are enough to making a living off of. If you're in Massachusetts take a look at some of the small remaining farms around Methuen, Lawrence, etc. I think they're doing OK and supporting families.

You will have to talk to your family and hopefully work out something similar to the arrangement I described above. It worked for me 20 years ago and I know I couldn't afford to touch the property cost-wise today.

Good luck, I hope things work out well for you and your family.

 

[svenlylethor]

Hey thanks everyone for your comments! I didn't think I'd get so many messages.

Just to make things clear I don't plan on making my living on the farm. I plan on making a living with a corporate-type job somewhat near the farm and then working with my dad to make it run better on the side. I do think I can make some money from it but I definitely don't think I could live off the farm. I just see it as more of a hobby and something to do on the side that gives me some extra money. Farming has always been one of my passions.

I wouldn't buy my dad's farm; he'd just let me run it for him. If it sells like we think it will sell in the next 10-20 years (and how our land has sold in the past) my parents will make over $1M when they sell it. We've already had offers over that that fell through because the city hadn't developed out enough yet. It is getting annexed into the city though and will easily sell in the future.

The reason why I left farming was because when I was graduating from college I received a job offer from a huge corporation with a great salary, signing bonus, etc. I knew I had more talent outside of farming and that job was by far the best offer I had gotten so I left. Had I have gotten a good job offer in Utah would I have stayed? Much more likely. I always knew I'd have the option to come back if I wanted to. I always know I can go back whenever I want so I thought I'd spend some of my younger years living in new places, meeting new people, etc because those options might not present themselves in the future but the farm will always be an option for me. My parents encouraged it because they knew I had a lot of talent outside of farming and they thought I would be selling myself short if I stayed home on the farm. I think their big concern is whether or not I'll be happy moving home. They know we won't make lots of money farming even if we run everything perfectly. My parents have made so much money selling land that money isn't really the question anymore.

I do miss farming a lot. Everyone who knows me knows my passion for farming. I miss working with my hands. I miss having a dodge diesel and a John Deere. I miss western shirts and chaps. I miss riding horses and growing crops. I miss the feeling of accomplishment when I've cut and baled a field of hay. Since I've left I've found other things to try and fill that part in my life. I fix my jeep a lot so I work with my hands, I bought a motorcycle and go on tours because it's like riding a horse in some ways and I love machines. I paint huge portraits because it makes me feel like I've accomplished something. (I'm even going to be displaying some at nearby coffee shops in Boston.) BTW my signature on my paintings is our brand we put on our cattle. I have the brand on my motorcycle helmet too. It's like my personal emblem.

I guess one of the questions I should really ask myself is if I still want to play around, experience new things, and go on adventures while I'm young, single, and have no debts for as long as I can? Will I feel like I've given up those freedoms if I move home? Could I find a corporate job that allows me to travel on the side or be around international people and still help out on the farm on the side? Do I feel like I'd still be able to develop my other talents if I moved home?

This sounds like this is becoming a therapy session for me. LOL Thanks everyone for your comments.

 

[svenlylethor]

Do you have siblings? What will happen to the farm holdings when both of your parents pass; will the assets need to be liquidated to satisfy other heirs, debts or taxes, or will everything pass to you anyway? Do your parents have an estate plan in place?

Here's what I would do if you can afford it and your parents are agreeable: Purchase the farm from them and have them take back a significant mortgage which you can afford to pay from your full-time job income. Offer them a little more than the going interest rate on the mortgage and maybe they give you a break on the price and they retain a life estate in the property. You will realize some tax deduction advantages, can even run the farm at a loss for several years, or rent to someone else, and they will be secure.

Assuming you are unmarried, NOW is the time to do it. You have the income and also some free time to handle the farm operation in some way and give them assistance in dealing with doctors, hospitals and home health care, etc.

Being in a developing area, if you don't make the purchase now you probably won't be able to afford in the future.

One thing I would not do is terminate all outside employment and try to go straight back into farming. Keep your east coast job until you can find similar secure and rewarding employment near your parents. A lot of varied opportunities can open up for an 80 acre farm near an urbanizing/suburban area, some of which are enough to making a living off of. If you're in Massachusetts take a look at some of the small remaining farms around Methuen, Lawrence, etc. I think they're doing OK and supporting families.

You will have to talk to your family and hopefully work out something similar to the arrangement I described above. It worked for me 20 years ago and I know I couldn't afford to touch the property cost-wise today.

Good luck, I hope things work out well for you and your family.

I have 4 siblings. All 5 of us are in different states. I'm the youngest and am the only one who has loved farming. Nobody else ever showed interest. I know my parents do have a will and that the farm is part of the will but I'm not sure how it will be divided. My parents have helped other siblings and told them it was part of their "inheritance". I've always been independent of my parents and haven't talked to them about money until very recently. They're usually very private about their money with me but they do talk to me more about these things now. I had a conversation with them about moving back just a few days ago.

My parent's wouldn't sell me the farm - it's everyone's inheritance, so to speak. I can't afford to pay for it either. The land is worth so much money that it would be illogical for me to buy it just for farming. When it sells it will go in to commercial/residential property. I'm assuming I'd just run it until my parents pass away and then the deed to the farm would probably be split between us. When the time is right to sell, the money would be distributed accordingly. (I should probably ask my parents about that though) I would literally just move home, get another job, and have the farm on the side. Everything would be my dad's but he'd give me free run of the place. My dad would be there to help and we'd have farm hands too just in case either of us were too busy. It's just that my dad's ability to run the farm and manage farm hands is piss poor.

I think I'll have to have a more in-depth discussion with my parents about the will, how I'd run the farm, etc.

 

[/pine]

A sounding board is a good thing...but it really boils down to a "family decision"

Good Luck...

 

[downslope]

If you're only going to be into this for the next 10 years or so on a hobby basis and then everything gets sold, then the only reason I would even consider going back is to help your dad hold on for a while.

It's not worth screwing up a career path for 10 years of part-time farming. Let's face it, he'd probably sell out tomorrow if the price were right and the economy wasn't still climbing out of a recession.

Try to take a long range view. Are there any farmland preservation efforts being funded in your County or statewide? When values are up and it comes time to sell there may be some PDR (purchase of development rights) program in place where your family would realize maybe 80-90% of the full value, still retain ownership for farming and you could afford to buy out the remaining 10-20% from siblings; that's what my neighbor did about 7 years ago and he's still farming it after retiring from a govt job. I think Utah has such a program but the funding ran out 2 years ago in the midst of the recession; maybe they'll crank it up when things pick up again. Just saying, it's something to inquire about and keep an eye on.

 

[janddetc]

I was born and raised on a farm, but in todays ecomomy, I believe you will have a hard time making a go of it. 60 acres by todays standard is what was called a hobby farm in the 50's and 60's when I was on the farm.The hobby farmers held down a full time job in the city, and came home and did the farming after or before work. But to step into farming today , would be suicidal . The big farms and ranches are having a tough time of it. I appreciate what your thinking about as far as saving the farm, but you need to think of your future more than the farms. I thought about going back to farming, but I have a good steady job, and would be a fool to go back now

 

[MacLawn]

Sven, how old are ye? I'd say as long as ye stay in the real work world, health care, retirement plan at ye job, etc., you'd do good to go back to Utah. Ye farm would just be ye first love and a rightful hobby. Ye Pappy is already rich, and sounds like you even might be a tad dirty (as in filthy rich) yeself, so I say, get on back to Utah where ye belong. Then, when I come, ye can let me park me travel trailer on ye place a few dates and I'll hep ye out on ye farm. I've been about everywhere, speak Japanese, lived in Japan many years, Europe, etc., lived in San Francisco a couple of years, but am wanting to go to Utah and see the real west! I've only stopped at salt lake airport one time.

"Oh the weevils in the cotton,
And the corn don't grow,
Everybody's got trouble,
Every place I go,
Let the rain come down,
And the cold wind blow,
Gonna stay right here,
In the home I know,
Troubles, troubles, troubles..."

 

[NorTracNY]

Interesting read and decision to make. After reading it all, I don't see you enjoying the farm as much as you like. You have talent and you know you could do it well, but it doesn't sound like it's the family farm you grew up with, it won't be your farm, and it's only a temporary hobby that will compete with your job. Doesn't alfalfa need to be harvested at a certain time? What if that's during your 2 week business trip and your father is ill? Will you feel comfortable with him trying to help you out if he's ill? If you want to move closer to your parents, go ahead, but I see you trying to run the farm as a distraction. If you are enjoying your current job, stay with it.

It sounds clear that you are intelligent and will do well with what you focus on, but I don't understand the thought of starting a temporary adventure in what is left of your parent's farm.

 

[samhudson3]

I say go for it. Give it a year commitment, then re-evaluate.

If there's city pressure on the land, you've got lots of customers around. Folks are looking for local fruits and vegetables.

Life IS short, good luck!

 

[PapaPerk]

Go with your gut. But it's hard to leave your roots especially when you are older. Friends come and go... Family for better or worse is always a part of your life. And that's what's most important in the end.

 

[svenlylethor]

Try to take a long range view. Are there any farmland preservation efforts being funded in your County or statewide? When values are up and it comes time to sell there may be some PDR (purchase of development rights) program in place where your family would realize maybe 80-90% of the full value, still retain ownership for farming and you could afford to buy out the remaining 10-20% from siblings; that's what my neighbor did about 7 years ago and he's still farming it after retiring from a govt job. I think Utah has such a program but the funding ran out 2 years ago in the midst of the recession; maybe they'll crank it up when things pick up again. Just saying, it's something to inquire about and keep an eye on.

Funny you said that. Our neighbors wanted to go into a farmland preservation contract. (most of them have even smaller farms) My parents said **** no to that idea! our land is way too valuable to do something like that.

Just to give you guys some perspective on how much this 60 acre plot is worth, several years ago a large corporation wanted to buy our farm along with our neighbor's and put in a distribution warehouse because we're right off the freeway. They originally discussed purchasing our land for $80,000 per acre but because of the recession they decided to not move forward. $80,000 x 60 = ***** tons of money. My parents didn't mind because my dad had already sold other land and was more than comfortable with his money situation. He figured he still wanted land to farm with and he could hold out till later when he couldn't farm anymore.

Now I know the land isn't worth as much as that because of the recession but there's no way I would be able to buy the farm off my parents, nor would I want to. I just see this as a hobby farm to do on the side and spend more time with my dad now that his health is getting even worse. At this point we're just waiting for the right time to sell. Since we're now annexed in to the city, the land could easily sell in another 10 years.

 

[svenlylethor]

Sven, how old are ye? I'd say as long as ye stay in the real work world, health care, retirement plan at ye job, etc., you'd do good to go back to Utah. Ye farm would just be ye first love and a rightful hobby. Ye Pappy is already rich, and sounds like you even might be a tad dirty (as in filthy rich) yeself, so I say, get on back to Utah where ye belong. Then, when I come, ye can let me park me travel trailer on ye place a few dates and I'll hep ye out on ye farm. I've been about everywhere, speak Japanese, lived in Japan many years, Europe, etc., lived in San Francisco a couple of years, but am wanting to go to Utah and see the real west! I've only stopped at salt lake airport one time.

"Oh the weevils in the cotton,
And the corn don't grow,
Everybody's got trouble,
Every place I go,
Let the rain come down,
And the cold wind blow,
Gonna stay right here,
In the home I know,
Troubles, troubles, troubles..."

Yeah, I'd stay in the "real world" with a corporate job. I wouldn't go back unless I got a great job similar to what I have here. I would do this more for fun and to watch over my dad but I would still like to sell some hay on the side and at least try to be as profitable as possible. If I come back there'll be plenty of room for your travel trailer. :thumbsup:

BTW I'm 29. I turn 30 in the fall.

 

[svenlylethor]

Interesting read and decision to make. After reading it all, I don't see you enjoying the farm as much as you like. You have talent and you know you could do it well, but it doesn't sound like it's the family farm you grew up with, it won't be your farm, and it's only a temporary hobby that will compete with your job. Doesn't alfalfa need to be harvested at a certain time? What if that's during your 2 week business trip and your father is ill? Will you feel comfortable with him trying to help you out if he's ill? If you want to move closer to your parents, go ahead, but I see you trying to run the farm as a distraction. If you are enjoying your current job, stay with it.

It sounds clear that you are intelligent and will do well with what you focus on, but I don't understand the thought of starting a temporary adventure in what is left of your parent's farm.

Good point. Maybe if I do find a good job and move back to Utah I should manage my expectations on what I could really do to help. Maybe it's just living in Salt Lake where my work is and going back home on the weekends to help out in the fields. I'm sure he'd appreciate that. Either way my dad is going to be on the farm until his body has completely given up on him.

I like my work but I don't see myself here or in Boston permanently. I don't know if I'd ever settle down somewhere permanently but maybe that's just because I haven't found the right place yet. When I think about what I'd do in the near future it's usually about working for an international company, John Deere or AGCO corporate, getting an MBA, working abroad, moving back home, or a combination of any of those.

 

[timbatrader]

Earlier on in the thread the OP wanted to produce weed-free certified organic alfalfa in my experience weed free and organic just don’t go together the price you sell that for would have to be huge to justify the costs involved. Not sure which organization you would use to certify over there. Over here you would have to run the farm without chemicals for several years (up to five maybe) before you were able to claim organic status and get the premium price. Have you a plan on how you are going control the weeds organically 80 acres is a lot of acres to pull weeds by hand

 

[dave1949]

<snip>

I like my work but I don't see myself here or in Boston permanently. I don't know if I'd ever settle down somewhere permanently but maybe that's just because I haven't found the right place yet. When I think about what I'd do in the near future it's usually about working for an international company, John Deere or AGCO corporate, getting an MBA, working abroad, moving back home, or a combination of any of those.

You don't know what you want to be when you grow up. :laughing: Most people do struggle with that, or look back later in life and think about what may have been, what should have been, yada yada.

The jobs these days sort of lend themselves to multiple careers or careers in segments. Maybe you could identify some career goal segments. Give yourself 12-15 years at something you enjoy doing most. It probably won't be forever even if that were to be your preference.

Your family life makes a difference, not just your parent's. Jobs with lots of travel are hard on relationships and child raising. If you like doing that now and have the freedom to do it, I would say carry on and be happy.

Personally, I wouldn't invest a lot of time and emotion into a farm that I will never own. If you want to own a farm, I would start with one that you have sole control over now and into the future.

Providing support to aging parents is a challenge when you aren't near, and of course you feel some obligation to "be there" for family. On the other hand, parents want their kids to do well and follow their own course. They didn't raise you to hang around for ever. Parents understand you need to live your own life. I think, if I have read well, that if you remove your Dad from the equation, you wouldn't really consider temporarily messing with 60-80 acres of alfalfa.

Whatever you do, give the ideas time to cook a bit. In two-three-six months you may see it differently.

 

[downslope]

Funny you said that. Our neighbors wanted to go into a farmland preservation contract. (most of them have even smaller farms) My parents said **** no to that idea! our land is way too valuable to do something like that.

Just to give you guys some perspective on how much this 60 acre plot is worth, several years ago a large corporation wanted to buy our farm along with our neighbor's and put in a distribution warehouse because we're right off the freeway. They originally discussed purchasing our land for $80,000 per acre but because of the recession they decided to not move forward. $80,000 x 60 = ***** tons of money. My parents didn't mind because my dad had already sold other land and was more than comfortable with his money situation. He figured he still wanted land to farm with and he could hold out till later when he couldn't farm anymore.

Now I know the land isn't worth as much as that because of the recession but there's no way I would be able to buy the farm off my parents, nor would I want to. I just see this as a hobby farm to do on the side and spend more time with my dad now that his health is getting even worse. At this point we're just waiting for the right time to sell. Since we're now annexed in to the city, the land could easily sell in another 10 years.

I don't know how the preservation programs were working in your area, but are you saying they weren't offering your neighbors in the range of 80-90% of full appraised value? If they were, then you could sell the DR, still own the land and farm it and have the option of selling in the future to another farmer or horse person and recoup the balance, if desired. The way sale of DR usually works is that you should receive full appraised value minus what the land is worth as farmland.

I'll give you another perspective. Farmland in our area (about 2 hours from NYC) on which the development rights have already been sold off (the land can only be used for farming) still fetches $30-35K per acre. I only own 30 acres but back in 2007 when things were booming it was appraised at over $300K per acre and it's highest and best allowable use is only for residential single family homes. So, like your parents I'm waiting and hoping for things to bounce back, which maybe is starting to happen.

If your parents are comfortable now, then they have no reason to sell at all. Just let it pass to the children and you will all inherit it at the stepped-up basis and possibly avoid capital gains taxes in the future. If it really has commercial/industrial potential and your family's only goals are to maximize profit, then your father has the right idea, just sit on it and wait for the economy to fully recover, either in his lifetime or whenever.

EDIT: The only point I was trying to make here is that there's nothing wrong with farming on expensive land where the ROI appears poor as long as either (1) It's a hobby farm and/or you're just holding it for investment and the farm activity keeps the real estate taxes down with some opportunity for tax writeoffs, or (2) You can get some cash out of it from a PDR program or something similar. A bona fide full time farmer with aspirations of expansion would most likely sell the expensive small acreage and move on to something bigger and better. On the other hand, if a full time farm is profitable without any need or desire to expand, then even they could continue to operate on the valuable real estate.