Generators to support major operations

[ultrarunner]

And how many times did your tests "fail"?

I've a 10 year old gennie 6KW? I test about once every two months. A couple of times I needed ether. I know people that change their oil every 3,000 miles. Doesn't mean it needs to be done.

How much did that change to testing every other week affect reliability?
.

Not testing every week means lower fuel consumption... Typically, I would order a bulk delivery once a year and now it is every other year.

Big problem in my area is metal theives and rodents... a nearby hospital had a rat do 30k worth of damage to one of their units... who knows... maybe a weekly run schedule would have thwarted the rat from nest building?

Scavengers have been relentless... part of the daily rounds is to check the roof and grounds for loss and damage...

One night I get a call at 3 am that a toilet is not working... while I'm thinking why would I get a call when there are many toilets the nurse says there are no toilets on the floor working???

I get dressed and drive in.

Ten minutes later, as I approach, I see a geyser 30 feet in the air... metal theives stole two large backflow valves and left the entire facility without water...

Point is even with proper safegards and secure areas... nothing is 100%

For decades the gold standard for Hospital Emergency Power included weekly testing and still does in most parts of the county.

 

[dave1949]

It is possible to build generator backup systems that will switch massive power loads with close to zero fluctuation.

The NATO bunker I worked in had very large electric motors that spun huge flywheels 24/7/365 using utility power. There were diesel engines at the other end of the flywheels with a clutch between the engine and flywheel. Utility power kept the clutches disengaged. If utility power was lost, the clutches engaged and the flywheels would spin-up the diesel engines. The engines had coolant and oil heaters supplied by utility power, they were always pre-warmed.

Our computer systems from mainframes to minis never crashed in switch over tests which removed utility power from everything.

 

[V1Rotate]

It is possible to build generator backup systems that will switch massive power loads with close to zero fluctuation.

The NATO bunker I worked in had very large electric motors that spun huge flywheels 24/7/365 using utility power. There were diesel engines at the other end of the flywheels with a clutch between the engine and flywheel. Utility power kept the clutches disengaged. If utility power was lost, the clutches engaged and the flywheels would spin-up the diesel engines. The engines had coolant and oil heaters supplied by utility power, they were always pre-warmed.

Our computer systems from mainframes to minis never crashed in switch over tests which removed utility power from everything.

That's really interesting

 

[3930dave]

Even today's basic residential auto-start/xfer Generac systems can be up pretty quickly.

If I arrived at the doors of Emergency the split second the line power dropped, by the time the doors were pried open and I managed to move say 30' into the building, I'd like to think that all the available generator assets were fully up to speed and supporting their dedicated loads by then.

I'm not aware of any significant technical barriers to my expectation. And yes, as '1949 detailed, the technology to greatly exceed the performance level that I'm talking about was figured out a long time ago.

Rgds, D.

 

[Scooby074]

It is possible to build generator backup systems that will switch massive power loads with close to zero fluctuation.

The NATO bunker I worked in had very large electric motors that spun huge flywheels 24/7/365 using utility power. There were diesel engines at the other end of the flywheels with a clutch between the engine and flywheel. Utility power kept the clutches disengaged. If utility power was lost, the clutches engaged and the flywheels would spin-up the diesel engines. The engines had coolant and oil heaters supplied by utility power, they were always pre-warmed.

Our computer systems from mainframes to minis never crashed in switch over tests which removed utility power from everything.

Thats very cool. Ive read about flywheel UPS before but this is the first testimonial ive seen. Its amazing what can be done with basically an unlimited military budget.

 

[ultrarunner]

Even today's basic residential auto-start/xfer Generac systems can be up pretty quickly.

If I arrived at the doors of Emergency the split second the line power dropped, by the time the doors were pried open and I managed to move say 30' into the building, I'd like to think that all the available generator assets were fully up to speed and supporting their dedicated loads by then.

I'm not aware of any significant technical barriers to my expectation. And yes, as '1949 detailed, the technology to greatly exceed the performance level that I'm talking about was figured out a long time ago.

Rgds, D.

The Hospital Standard is 10 seconds... this is why all operating rooms also have battery wall mounted lights to cover the few seconds of transition if they don't have line battery backup.

Typically, OR Beds, Monitors, Emergency Equipment is battery powered and the line power keeps the batteries charged and will power should there be a battery problem.

I go through a pick-up load of batteries just keeping up and many of the replaced batteries end up in friends computer battery back-ups.

In practice... my Turbo Cummins units start, come up to speed and transfer power in 6 seconds.

Even though I'm in a mild California climate... the block heaters keep the coolant between 160 and 180 F 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

Each unit is monitored and will alarm should any number of problems arise... such as low coolant temp, long cranking time, oil pressure, speed fluctation, etc.

 

[dave1949]

That's really interesting

It was interesting, probably designed in the late 1950's. When money is no object, interesting things are possible, just like today. :laughing:

The ERWIN Bunker was combined with a nearby radar installation built on a hilltop named Erbeskopf. The radar site was built before the underground bunker itself. "Heritage head" in the translations is the literal meaning of Erbeskopf in German.

You can read a little about the place here, (use translate to English if you are using Chrome) or Google "ERWIN bunker" for English results. Boerfink was the village nearest the bunker. The bunker has been closed for many years now. Oddly, the size of the bunker was about doubled in the early 1990's but that portion was never put into service as the Cold War was winding down. They knew it would not be needed but under German law, cancelling a contract is almost as expensive as going forward with the project. The contracts probably dated back to the mid '80s.

Kommandobunker Börfink

 

[3930dave]

The Hospital Standard is 10 seconds... this is why all operating rooms also have battery wall mounted lights to cover the few seconds of transition if they don't have line battery backup.

Typically, OR Beds, Monitors, Emergency Equipment is battery powered and the line power keeps the batteries charged and will power should there be a battery problem.

I go through a pick-up load of batteries just keeping up and many of the replaced batteries end up in friends computer battery back-ups.

In practice... my Turbo Cummins units start, come up to speed and transfer power in 6 seconds.

Even though I'm in a mild California climate... the block heaters keep the coolant between 160 and 180 F 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

Each unit is monitored and will alarm should any number of problems arise... such as low coolant temp, long cranking time, oil pressure, speed fluctation, etc.

That is the response level, timing, and oversight I'd hope to see.

Given the capital and operating budget of a large modern hospital, our overall reliance on electricity, and the relative decline in the cost of standby power systems (relative to the custom Mil engineering '1949 describes) I can see no good reason for a hospital to be w/o near instant transfer to emergency power.

It doesn't make sense to have anything less, in a critical operation like a hospital.

Rgds, D.

 

[aczlan]

Thats very cool. Ive read about flywheel UPS before but this is the first testimonial ive seen. Its amazing what can be done with basically an unlimited military budget.

Server co-location facilities also have similar systems. That also gets rid of power spikes which can damage equipment.

Aaron Z

 

[Scooby074]

Server co-location facilities also have similar systems. That also gets rid of power spikes which can damage equipment.

Aaron Z

Off the top of my head, I believe that flywheel technology has been considered for improving hybrid vehicles too. I think it might even be part of the KERS system in modern F1.

 

[hr3]

For years I would load test our Hospital Emergency Power Generator weekly.

About 7 years ago I was informed that new air management regulations limited testing to once every other week...

Note... this generator was state of the art in 1995... so the regs went into effect on a 10 year old unit with less than 300 total hours.

Environmental Regs now trump many other regs and established standards of care.

Must have been in Calf,, Wow air management having the authority over the NFPA..

 

[SPIKER]

Back a few years ago, one of the recent hurricanes if I remember right or tornado issue. There were many large poultry farms (corporate run places with strict practices to follow) that lost 90% of their chickens as power went out and the fans all quit, basically got low O2 levels and quick kill took the chickens out. The Turkey barns fared a bit better as they were not as crowded. Seems the Corporations felt the line power was good enough to be on all time. But if it was off then no one felt the chickens would have issues, think they figured they would be fine without fresh air.

Most of the locals (farmers) all have large PTO generators or stationary back up power units. The ones running critters do for sure if they have to have food, water and lighting (required by law for Milking Operations I believe otherwise any power drop all stored milk must be dumped?!) Seems I heard that back 20 years ago but can't really remember if it was law or just the milk buyer requirements.


Mark

 

[ultrarunner]

Must have been in Calf,, Wow air management having the authority over the NFPA..

Yes... each stationary source must be registered with a annual fee paid based on stack output and at least once a year an inspector will show up to examine and check maintenance records for compliance.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Most farmers I know (including myself) have pto generators and plenty of tractors to drive it, even if only occasionally to run well(s), a grinder mixer, silo un-loader, milk house and lights. These are usually 3 phase capable machines. My WinPower 50kw has 3 phase and single phase taps for 240 and 120v feeds. We generally have a transfer switch on the local pole so that the whole farmstead has electricity.

So, I'm surprised that the farmer would have a 'beef'. A machine like I have can easily be had for under $3000. A serious farmer would commit a JD 4020 like machine to run it, with 500 to 1000 gal of on-hand diesel fuel to supply it.

Exactly. The dairy next door to my mother milks over 1000 head. When the power goes out, they lose maybe 20 to 30 minutes of milking time, just long enough to back a tractor up to the generator.

For pumping water, you don't even need electricity. I rigged up a 4" centrifugal to run off the PTO. I don't use it often, but can move a lot of water fast from any location I can get the tractor to.

 

[3930dave]

Back a few years ago, one of the recent hurricanes if I remember right or tornado issue. There were many large poultry farms (corporate run places with strict practices to follow) that lost 90% of their chickens as power went out and the fans all quit, basically got low O2 levels and quick kill took the chickens out. The Turkey barns fared a bit better as they were not as crowded. Seems the Corporations felt the line power was good enough to be on all time. But if it was off then no one felt the chickens would have issues, think they figured they would be fine without fresh air.

Most of the locals (farmers) all have large PTO generators or stationary back up power units. The ones running critters do for sure if they have to have food, water and lighting (required by law for Milking Operations I believe otherwise any power drop all stored milk must be dumped?!) Seems I heard that back 20 years ago but can't really remember if it was law or just the milk buyer requirements.


Mark

Today, you have to be (really) good with both a calculator and a tractor, but that chicken disaster was caused by a bean counter, not an ag engineer.

I first saw the general media reports back in '98 concerning dairy problems. Can't say I know the current regs on dairy here. A vet or a dairyman may correct me, but the impression I got was that if today's breeds go long at all w/o being milked, serious problems (mastitis) can set in.

Without even considering having to dump milk, the financial loss risk to a herd should make purchasing an appropriate generator a know () brainer.

Rgds, D.

 

[Scooby074]

Dave, Im no vet, but Ive been around barns enough to know that mastitis is a real concern and the girls have to be milked regularly to prevent it

 

[buickanddeere]

Yes... each stationary source must be registered with a annual fee paid based on stack output and at least once a year an inspector will show up to examine and check maintenance records for compliance.

What an Empire of power, control and authority they have built. The bureaucrats won't ever give that up willingly.

 

[3930dave]

Dave, Im no vet, but Ive been around barns enough to know that mastitis is a real concern and the girls have to be milked regularly to prevent it

Yes, that's also what I retained as a kid, from my uncle's small operation.

From what I can see, mastitus is a bacterial problem. The udders may just need to be cleaned regularily to prevent infection. 50 head, you can do by hand; doesn't track so well as the numbers scale though.

Rgds, D.

 

[Scooby074]

Yes, that's also what I retained as a kid, from my uncle's small operation.

From what I can see, mastitus is a bacterial problem. The udders may just need to be cleaned regularily to prevent infection. 50 head, you can do by hand; doesn't track so well as the numbers scale though.

Rgds, D.

There is bacteria for sure and that can cause diesease (thats why the teat dips). I think its more the inflammation from a full udder that is the main cause. Again Im no vet and only know what the farmers say.

 

[3930dave]

There is bacteria for sure and that can cause diesease (thats why the teat dips). I think its more the inflammation from a full udder that is the main cause. Again Im no vet and only know what the farmers say.

Probably both are factors. Any which way you look at it, I can't imagine setting up a modern high volume dairy operation w/o standby power support.

Rgds, D.