Bad Luck with Kioti CK25 Starting Problem - Again!

[MTUser]

Previously, I had asked for help in troubleshooting the lack of power to the starter solenoid in this thread:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kioti-owning-operating/281374-ck25-finally-wont-start-no.html

Once I got that resolved, the tractor has been starting and running fine - I've been using it to mow. Today, I have the exact same problem, nothing on the final turn of the ignition switch after the glow plugs go out. So I thought the old problem returned. But it is something new. I do have a good 12 volts to the solenoid.

Please can I get some advice on the next path to troubleshoot this issue?

I bought this used, and I am beginning to think I bought a lemon. I'd like to be able to use the tractor when I want to, after doing my routine maintenance. Is that too much to ask?

 

[ritcheyvs]

If you have a voltmeter (1) measure the voltage at the big terminal on the starter - should be 12.xx volts. (2) Measure the voltage at the small terminal on the starter - should be zero. (3) Measure the voltage at the small terminal on the starter while someone turns the key to the crank position - should jump to about 12 volts while key turned. (4) If step 3 is OK, repeat step 1 while someone turns the key to the crank position.

If all the voltages are good there is a dead-spot on the starter. This can be an actual dead spot (or dirt) on the commutator, a sticky brush, or a sticky "bendix". In any case, tap on the starter with a small hammer or medium size piece of wood. You can do this while someone holds the key in the crank position if you are sure you won't get run over if it starts.

If you fail test 1 or 4 you have a bad battery or battery cable/connection.

If you fail test 3 you have a problem again in the signal to the starter. It could be a bad key switch (been there), a bad safety switch, or a wiring problem (like a corroded connector). You have some experience with this.

There is a brute-force test, which is to short the big and small terminals on the starter. This should make the starter turn unless the battery, battery cables, or starter proper are bad. But this test can produce sparks that can damage the threaded terminals on the starter or cause a fire, especially if you accidentally short something to the chassis. So I recommend using a meter if you have one.

Scott

 

[MTUser]

Thanks for helping me.

I do have a multimeter and have done a series of tests like you outlined and more. I think I have some strange results. So I would like some advice.

Tests 1 and 2 are positive, meaning big terminal 12 volts, small terminal zero.

Test 3 is more complex and I spent a lot of time on this one.

If I disconnect the red wire that connects to the solenoid and test it with my volt meter, I get 12 volts at the end of the red wire when the switch is turned all the way and the clutch pedal is completely depressed. But, if I connect the red wire to the solenoid and check the voltage at the metal tab that the red wire connects to, it is zero when the key is turned all the way and the clutch pedal depressed.

At first I thought I had a dirty connection. So I cleaned both ends. I used a wire brush on the spade terminal on the solenoid and contact cleaner and a spare spade terminal on the black clip connector on the red wire. It still showed zero voltage when connected so I thought I must have a bad connector. I cut the black connector off and stripped back the red wire covering it to expose the copper wire. This is when I found that I had 12 volts in the end of the exposed wire when the key is turned, but that 12 volts goes to zero the moment I touch it to the spade terminal on the solenoid.

I hope you know what this means. I am completely lost as to what is broken.

 

[ritcheyvs]

I know what it means. sort of. You have high resistance somewhere in the circuit that delivers power to the small terminal. It could be in the key switch, the clutch safety switch, an inline connector, or an actual bad piece of wire (not likely).

Here's what's happening. Ohm's law: V=I x R. When the wire is disconnected no current can flow through it (like a capped-off water pipe). So I=0 when disconnected so there is no voltage drop between the battery and the end of your wire (V=0), for any value of R less than infinity. BUT there is a high resistance (poor connection) somewhere in that circuit such that when you connect the wire to the starter and let current (I) flow you lose (almost) the whole 12 volts across the resistance. By the way, I'd expect the total resistance in the circuit feeding the starter to be less than one or two ohms.

I don't have the schematic for your tractor but we know some of the possible causes: key switch and safety switch. There are certainly more. As I recall, you saw a fairly high resistance (like 50 ohm) when you tested the safety switch before so I'd start there. Disconnect the wires from the safety switch and rig some way to short them together (like a piece of wire, metal, etc.) but don't let the metal jumper touch the tractor chassis temporarily wrap with tape if needed. Reconnect the starter wire at the starter. Then see if the tractor cranks. If so, you found the culprit, adjust or replace that switch. If not. you need to keep looking.

The systematic way to proceed (if it's not that safety switch) is to reconnect the wire to the starter and then, using the schematic and voltmeter, work your way "upstream" from the starter terminal to the battery testing for 12v at each accessible point when the key is turned to crank. Eventually you'll find a point where the 12v is still good (with key turned) and you will have isolated the problem; it's something between the last bad reading and the first good reading.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Again, I don't have a schematic for your tractor but I looked at some of the DK schematics for HST models have something called a cruise unit. This may not apply to you because those DKs don't seem to have a clutch interlock.

Some models, like the CK20 manual send power to the starter solenoid directly through the key switch and the clutch lockout switch. I Think that is how your's works but that's a guess; as I said, I don't have the schematic.

The larger DK models the key switch powers a relay which switches on power to the starter. In that arrangement the cruise unit provides the ground to the relay (relay won't function without ground). This ground is only available when the PTO is off and the gear selector is in neutral. It's possible you'r machine has some of this complexity, but I doubt it.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Disregard the previous post. I've been looking at Michigan Iron's excellent parts site for the CK25H:
OEM Parts

I think the start system on your machine is very simple: two switches, wires, and inline connectors.

 

[MTUser]

Thank you for trying to help me.

I conducted a few more experiments based on advice from a neighbor with a tractor. He suggested that I may have a stuck solenoid too, so I should try tapping it gently, which I did but nothing happened. He told me as a last resort, I could use a battery starting cable as a short across the two terminals to start the tractor. I tried this and all that happens is the starter motor spins, but it is not engaged so the the tractor does not turn over.

Lastly, whatever is wrong is intermittent as one time when I was trying to start the tractor, it started. But of course when I shut it off, it would not re-start. The time it started was simply turning the key, waiting then turning some more - I didn't do anything special.

 

[IXLR8]

Some starters need the solenoid activated to move the starter gear into the flywheel. I will check my CK30 when I get home on Thursday if you want me to. I suspect if you had provided 12v to starter solenoid at the same time as you connected battery power to the starter it would have turned the engine over. I know I am new to this party.. but it does sound like you have a bad connection somewhere and Scott in post 4 gave you a good method to track it down... not necessarily easy, but a good methodology. As he said, I believe that you only have; a few connections, the clutch safety switch and the key switch in the electrical path to the starter. There is no PTO or range safety switch that I am aware of on the CK tractors like there is on the DK tractors. I believe the "cruise control" on the CK's is just a clamp of some sort that holds the HST pedal in place where you set it. My bet is on either the clutch switch or the key switch. The key switches are notorious on the CK's for going bad as the water gets in them and corrodes them. Do you have the hook to hold the clutch pedal down while you troubleshoot? If you run a wire directly from the battery to the solenoid connection on the starter, what happens? Where are you located?

 

[ritcheyvs]

Thank you for trying to help me.

I conducted a few more experiments based on advice from a neighbor with a tractor. He suggested that I may have a stuck solenoid too, so I should try tapping it gently, which I did but nothing happened. He told me as a last resort, I could use a battery starting cable as a short across the two terminals to start the tractor. I tried this and all that happens is the starter motor spins, but it is not engaged so the the tractor does not turn over.

Lastly, whatever is wrong is intermittent as one time when I was trying to start the tractor, it started. But of course when I shut it off, it would not re-start. The time it started was simply turning the key, waiting then turning some more - I didn't do anything special.

Shorting the big starter terminal (at 12v always) to the small terminal should accomplish the same thing as turning the switch to the crank position. This is the same as the "brute force" test I described in post #2. I think you said that doing this made the starter motor spin up but the starter gear did not engage the flywheel. Maybe this is an anomaly but the same solenoid (within the starter) that makes the big electrical connection that makes the motor run should force the pinion gear to engage the flywheel. Maybe you should try that test again. If the starter consistently runs without engaging the flywheel there is a problem inside the starter. I think this is unlikely because it is totally new behavior.

In any case, this starter issue (not engaging flywheel) is a separate issue from "nothing" happening when you turn the key.

One correction to my post #3. Looking again at a CK20 schematic I do have, I see that there is indeed a starter relay, which is another possible source of your problem. I suspect it is mounted on the firewll along with several other relays, but that's a guess.

 

[Coyote machine]

OK, I see you have a 2007 CK with how many hours?
I read your other thread and I'd like you to verify a few things: How old is your battery? Have you checked and cleaned your battery ground cable connection at the frame? If not, do so and make sure there is NO corrosion whatsoever at the frame and on the ground connection. Make sure to use anti-seize or battery post spray to seal the frame ground from further possible corrosion. Verify the ground cable to the battery by disconnecting it from the battery post and connecting a lead from your meter to the frame bolt and one to the end that connects to the battery. Move the cable around and see if the reading changes. If it does replace the entire ground cable and ends.
It sounds like you have a drop in current from your ignition circuit through to your starting circuit, BUT to properly troubleshot this you first need to verify your charging circuit, battery and cables, as outlined above. I suspect your starter/solenoid, relay function is hampered, intermittently, by poor flow of current through the entire circuit; probably a result of a bad ground, as testing outlined above will confirm.
Problem is when a poor ground condition exists, over time, left unresolved, the result is arcing at relay contacts, lack of heat dissipation in the components that make up the circuit, etc. Over time this can result in 'funky' hard to trace intermittent issues like you're experiencing.
Don't give up- you didn't buy a lemon, just a tractor that needs some updated preventive maintenance.
Report back results, don't replace anything yet until 'we' have a more solid diagnosis.

CM-out

 

[rmorey]

I know you had a previous thread with a similar problem and I don't remember the resolution. I had an '04 CK25 with the same problem.

It ended up being corrosion in the key switch. $30-$40 and 5 minutes to change it. I also found if I turned the key slowly past the "glow plug" selection it would start....sometimes. Just something else to try. Hope it gets cleared up for you soon.

 

[Gittyup]

Are you sure it's not the ground on the starter?

Sans that, try powering the start relay directly from the battery. This bypasses the keyswitch and clutch switch.

Also measure the coil resistance on the starter. It should be less than a couple of ohms or so.

Not much there to troubleshoot: keyswitch, clutch switch (controls power to the relay), relay, and starter.

 

[MTUser]

Hello All,

The tractor is fixed, mostly. But I still need help. Here is what I did: I gave up.

Then my wife who wanted the field mowed suggested that the mechanic in the little town that I live in should take a look at it. He wasn't busy and came over to look at it immediately. He initially diagnosed a bad starter/solenoid. He took the starter out and took it to a rebuild shop 20 miles away. He came back and told me that the shop tested the motor and solenoid and they were 100% fine.

Next he thought the battery may be bad. He tested that with a battery tester and it wasn't perfect, 650 CCA, but it obviously was not the source of the problem. Next, he started troubleshooting. He immediately commented that he could hear a click up by the backwall in the tractor. He started tapping/hitting a little black box and all of a sudden the tractor started. He took out the blackbox, he called it a relay and said it was bad. He told me that it was another solenoid and it was probably dirty. So I remembered that I had bought contact cleaner a long time ago when I thought the switch was bad. He used that to clean it and put it back together and back in the tractor. The tractor now starts every time. Here is a picture of the culprit:



I'd like to buy another to be on the safe side. The label is unreadable. Does anyone know what this is? The part # so I can order one? And, what does this do such that it was causing this problem?

Thanks.

 

[Coyote machine]

Hello All,

The tractor is fixed, mostly. But I still need help. Here is what I did: I gave up.

Then my wife who wanted the field mowed suggested that the mechanic in the little town that I live in should take a look at it. He wasn't busy and came over to look at it immediately. He initially diagnosed a bad starter/solenoid. He took the starter out and took it to a rebuild shop 20 miles away. He came back and told me that the shop tested the motor and solenoid and they were 100% fine.

Next he thought the battery may be bad. He tested that with a battery tester and it wasn't perfect, 650 CCA, but it obviously was not the source of the problem. Next, he started troubleshooting. He immediately commented that he could hear a click up by the backwall in the tractor. He started tapping/hitting a little black box and all of a sudden the tractor started. He took out the blackbox, he called it a relay and said it was bad. He told me that it was another solenoid and it was probably dirty. So I remembered that I had bought contact cleaner a long time ago when I thought the switch was bad. He used that to clean it and put it back together and back in the tractor. The tractor now starts every time. Here is a picture of the culprit:



I'd like to buy another to be on the safe side. The label is unreadable. Does anyone know what this is? The part # so I can order one? And, what does this do such that it was causing this problem?

Thanks.

Doesn't seem you gave up, seems to me your wife had a good idea, and you acted on it and got it solved.
Send the pic to MIE (Michigan Iron & Equipment), or another Kioti dealer, with your model and serial number and they can order it for you.
Seems it is a starter safety relay which probably locks out the starter if your PTO is engaged.
Whatever it turns out to be I'd install a new one and keep the old one as a semi reliable spare for future use, as needed.

 

[Xfaxman]

For future reference, he can show it, better than I can type it!

Starter Voltage Drop - YouTube

 

[ritcheyvs]

This relay appears to be item #9 on this page: OEM Parts

I believe it is the starter relay that switches the power to the starter solenoid. I mentioned this on the tail end of post #9.

The starter solenoid draws a pretty healthy current so most models use a relay to reduce the length of wire in the current path and also to reduce the current through the key switch and clutch lockout switch. If you look on the schematic it's the thing between the clutch switch and the starter solenoid (labeled "relay starter").

 

[MTUser]

Thanks. I have a better understanding now. Even if I had watched this before, I don't think I could have put it into practice to come up with the correct result for myself. But, it is better to have an understanding so the whole tractor is not a black box.

For future reference, he can show it, better than I can type it!

Starter Voltage Drop - YouTube

 

[MTUser]

Thanks for all your help, especially where to find this part. I have had a good experience with MIE the last time I bought parts from them. I see that you suggested this relay as a possible culprit. Finding it on my own would have been beyond me, I would never have known to hit the thing with a hammer like the mechanic did, but I would certainly try that in future as part of the rest of the testing.

This relay appears to be item #9 on this page: OEM Parts

I believe it is the starter relay that switches the power to the starter solenoid. I mentioned this on the tail end of post #9.

The starter solenoid draws a pretty healthy current so most models use a relay to reduce the length of wire in the current path and also to reduce the current through the key switch and clutch lockout switch. If you look on the schematic it's the thing between the cluych switch and the starter solenoid (labeled "relay starter").