R4041 Loader Issue LB4101

[boomer632]

Ok.. the tractor has 180 hours on it and noticed what I think may be a problem with the loader or hydraulics. While using loader to push snow piles today I noticed the following:

When I rolled the bucket all the way do dump snow I noticed that there was about a second and a half delay just prior to the bucket cylinders extending out all the way to full dump. When I rolled the bucket.. at just prior to the cylinders being fully extended... at about 95% roll when bucket lip was facing down... the bucket would actually swing back and fourth about 2 inches before the cylinders finally built pressure to push the remainiing 2 inches or so to full extension. It appears that there is no pressure in the cylinders during the time the bucket swings back and fourth. All of this happens when the bucket lip is about headlight level attempting a full roll to dump. Has anybody else noticed this on their loader? Might be worth a look. Im going to make a video tomorrow and show the dealer and see what he says.

 

[mangus580]

I noticed this with my 3039 the other day. Oddly, I dont think it did it when I first got it. I noticed it after I was doing some back scraping in the 'frozen' cow stall. It almost made me wonder if I put some tension on one of the linkages, causing it to now bind a little when it is dumping.

Makes me feel a little better to have someone else have a similar issue!

I will have to experiment with mine to see if it only does it at one height or another.

 

[Bladehauler]

Mine also does this when almost fully dumped. at first I thought it was air in the cylinders, but now im not sure if its the linkage or ????

 

[Hansen Equipment Inc]

Not to be concerened,that happens to many loaders and backhoes too. What is happening is when you move the loader control to dump the cly.oil being pumped to what we will call A port is pushing the piston out or extending the cly. The B port of the cyl is returnig oil to the valve then to tank. Two things are happening. one the load of the bucket pulls the ram out faster than you are really controling,the B port of the cly now works as a pump pushing oil to tank with no restriction. The second thing is that the A port oil is NOT entering the cyl.as fast as the B port is pushing. This cause the void you see as the swinging bucket,then the oil catches up to finish its stroke. Most of the time by increaseing the engine RPM will prevent this This allows the pump to delever max flow of oil. Also continue to hold the lever to allow the oil to fill the void. If though you notice drifting of the cyl or the load drops then that could be a packing or loose piston. And as Bladehauler had said play in the linkage will also show some back and forth movment.

 

[Bladehauler]

Thank you for the detailed explanation Hansen equipment.
My last name is also Hansen , so that means I get a discount right?

 

[Gary Fowler]

My P 7010 does this also and is quite a delay when engine is idling, so I don't think there is a problem with linkage just oil flow as Hansen Equipment explained.

 

[boomer632]

I had mine running at about 2000 rpm when I noticed it happen. I did notice that the rods did move back and fourth when the bucket did. I thought there would always be pressure in the cylinders in one direction or the other which would prevent the bucket from swaying. Thanks for the info. I'll post dealer response when I get video to him.

 

[TSO]

Interesting. Haven't noticed this yet, but then I've only logged a few hours on it.

My Kioti never did that, and of the 220 hrs I put on it last year, at least 175 of those were during loader work.

Granted that was a HST and my RPM's were up... But... Seems like a design flaw somehow, as it doesn't seem right to me.

I've also noticed that moving the bucket in "dual function", as in lifting AND curling at the same time, is temperamental. Seems like it can lift AND curl and lower AND drop... But those are touchy. I don't think I've been able to make it lower AND curl or lift AND drop as a dual function

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[mangus580]

I've also noticed that moving the bucket in "dual function", as in lifting AND curling at the same time, is temperamental. Seems like it can lift AND curl and lower AND drop... But those are touchy. I don't think I've been able to make it lower AND curl or lift AND drop as a dual function

Yeah, its a major letdown when you attempt it. I am still holding out hope that as the valve 'breaks in' it might get a little better.

 

[TSO]

Yeah, its a major letdown when you attempt it. I am still holding out hope that as the valve 'breaks in' it might get a little better.

Shoot... I was hoping I was the only one experiencing that and that it would work itself out. Sounds like a design issue, might even be as simple as the joystick, but I doubt it

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[Guesseral]

Shoot... I was hoping I was the only one experiencing that and that it would work itself out. Sounds like a design issue, might even be as simple as the joystick, but I doubt it

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No these are low flow hydraulic systems and doing two different work items at one time is difficult to say the least because of the low flow. On my old ford there is a higher flow pump and it is a lot easier to do more than function at one time (although there are 2 different levers) even on the backhoe because I can use 2 or 3 levers all at one time and they will work but with less power, but it is a totally different type of hydraulic system. I am going to try and adjust my cables this spring and probabaly lub them too to see if I can get a little bit better control, but like I said low pressure (no low flow) only goes so far. I think yours is about the same as mine like 8 or 9 GPM not really much. Then again I could just be talking ont my backside again! :cool2:

 

[Bladehauler]

I have 128 hrs on mine and it wont hardly do more than 1 operation at a time. dont know if its the valve design, too small a pump or what. also my bucket cylinders seem to be pretty weak, even with the 2500 psi I recorded at them. Too small a cylinders I guess.At least its too weak to hurt it self.

 

[Guesseral]

You have to understand, these tractor hydraulic systems were designed to operate a 3pt setup and anything else that it may run is beyond the design. Now that said the original systems are always over designed so that they can be used for other operations. Even the old fords I have had the ability to have the hydraulic plate (under the seat) removed and additional hydraulics added but these added hydraulics were limited because of the flow, that is why they added an additional hydraulic pump off of the front of the engine when a larger FEL or BH were added so there was a higher hydraulic flow to operate these types of equipment. When they had a snow plow or a smaller loader they used the tractors hydraulic system you have seen these loaders they were a single arm style with one raise cylander and usually long forks out the front of the bucket for manure. I think you have the 4047 (Oh yea BLADEHAULER) which is the newer version of my montana and that loader is even an up grade from mine if I am not mistaken it has larger cylanders than I have to increase the lifting capasity, but still these are light duty loaders (and tractors) and they do what they do. :confused3: Of course you might bennifett with some cable adjustment and lubrication also I don't know.

 

[TSO]

You have to understand, these tractor hydraulic systems were designed to operate a 3pt setup and anything else that it may run is beyond the design. Now that said the original systems are always over designed so that they can be used for other operations. Even the old fords I have had the ability to have the hydraulic plate (under the seat) removed and additional hydraulics added but these added hydraulics were limited because of the flow, that is why they added an additional hydraulic pump off of the front of the engine when a larger FEL or BH were added so there was a higher hydraulic flow to operate these types of equipment. When they had a snow plow or a smaller loader they used the tractors hydraulic system you have seen these loaders they were a single arm style with one raise cylander and usually long forks out the front of the bucket for manure. I think you have the 4047 (Oh yea BLADEHAULER) which is the newer version of my montana and that loader is even an up grade from mine if I am not mistaken it has larger cylanders than I have to increase the lifting capasity, but still these are light duty loaders (and tractors) and they do what they do. :confused3: Of course you might bennifett with some cable adjustment and lubrication also I don't know.

I understand what you're saying... However, why did my much smaller Kioti NOT experience these issues? Why does my buddy's Kubota NOT have these issues. I'm still relatively new to the tractor world, but this is the first time I've seen a tractor have a problem performing two loader actions at the same time.

Maybe the Hydraulic pressure just needs to be turned up...

Whad'ya think Hansen? Have you adjusted the output yet on any of these?

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[Guesseral]

Can't answer those questions, not farmilar with either one of those maunfacturers..

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Thank you for the detailed explanation Hansen equipment.
My last name is also Hansen , so that means I get a discount right?

Or shot. You need to be careful when it comes to these things, family and all.

 

[Hansen Equipment Inc]

I understand what you're saying... However, why did my much smaller Kioti NOT experience these issues? Why does my buddy's Kubota NOT have these issues. I'm still relatively new to the tractor world, but this is the first time I've seen a tractor have a problem performing two loader actions at the same time.

Maybe the Hydraulic pressure just needs to be turned up...

Whad'ya think Hansen? Have you adjusted the output yet on any of these?

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Adjusting the pressure higher would help with lifting more,and a little more cycle time until you reach the point of the pumps max flow capacity. Then the pump would need to spin faster or be of a larger displacement. You cant change the limited RPM with out damage to the tractor and a larger pump would be to small for the hyd line, hose, valve etc.so your back to square one. As for operating multi functions and the difficulty in feathering compared to the Kioti,I would say the difference is in the spool its self with a better feathering land at the spools edge. Remember all these tractors are simple hyd systems with simple componets. Heavy equipment, tow trucks, cranes,& fire trucks have complex systems that have features to allow for precesssion control with a 100% duty cycle. A Hyd. excavator pump cost more than most compact tractors. Tractors loaders and backhoes have a system with just a few simple imprvoments, honed spool bores with multi grooved spool lands, load checks for when you are lifting a load that it does not drop when the spool first opens and a regeneration valve usally on a back hoe to allow returning oil in a open center system to be used on demand instead of going to tank. The compact tractor when used with in there capability and caution with heavy loads perform very well. Be carefull if you adjust the system pressure higher than spec it could lead to bent cyl. blown hoses, all that good stuff. not to mention a warranty issue. I have a yard tractor that I increased the pressure 10% and gained about 25% more lift. But thats pushing it and our loads are usally a low pick. with lots of counter weight. I dont recommend any adjustment beyond the manufacture spec. It would be good to have the pressure checked to make sure it is on spec.

 

[TSO]

Adjusting the pressure higher would help with lifting more,and a little more cycle time until you reach the point of the pumps max flow capacity. Then the pump would need to spin faster or be of a larger displacement. You cant change the limited RPM with out damage to the tractor and a larger pump would be to small for the hyd line, hose, valve etc.so your back to square one. As for operating multi functions and the difficulty in feathering compared to the Kioti,I would say the difference is in the spool its self with a better feathering land at the spools edge. Remember all these tractors are simple hyd systems with simple componets. Heavy equipment, tow trucks, cranes,& fire trucks have complex systems that have features to allow for precesssion control with a 100% duty cycle. A Hyd. excavator pump cost more than most compact tractors. Tractors loaders and backhoes have a system with just a few simple imprvoments, honed spool bores with multi grooved spool lands, load checks for when you are lifting a load that it does not drop when the spool first opens and a regeneration valve usally on a back hoe to allow returning oil in a open center system to be used on demand instead of going to tank. The compact tractor when used with in there capability and caution with heavy loads perform very well. Be carefull if you adjust the system pressure higher than spec it could lead to bent cyl. blown hoses, all that good stuff. not to mention a warranty issue. I have a yard tractor that I increased the pressure 10% and gained about 25% more lift. But thats pushing it and our loads are usally a low pick. with lots of counter weight. I dont recommend any adjustment beyond the manufacture spec. It would be good to have the pressure checked to make sure it is on spec.

OK. I'm not experiencing the "limp bucket" problem LOL... But I'm wondering how many other owners notice the issues with dual-action loader movements? Hansen, if u get a chance, can you play with the ones on your lot and see if they do it?

Like I said, I can lift the arms AND curl at the same time, and I can lower the arms AND drop the bucket simultaneously... Although it's sometimes difficult to find just the right spot.

I can't recall if I've ever been able to lift the arms AND drop the bucket simultaneously (or drop & curl)...

And like I said, my Kioti didn't have the issue, neither does my buddy's (2) Kubota's. That's why I feel it's either a problem with my tractor, or a problem with the design.

Maybe it's just the joystick itself? Is there a way for me to check if the pressure is up to spec, or does the dealer need to? I'm not really concerned with increasing the pressure to gain more strength, I'm happy with that as it is. Just trying to troubleshoot. Hey, maybe the limp bucket is caused by an un-full oil reservoir, or maybe the reservoir is too small for this loader?

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[TSO]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu5i-rH5tpQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I made a quick vid...

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[MtnViewRanch]

This is 100% combination operator and loader joystick. These joysticks are not really intended to be used as a multifunction (same time) setup IMO. Your video shows this as in sometimes it works and others not. That is the operater, but not that it is the operater's fault really. The valves just are not intended to be used simutainiusly is all.

One of the reasons that I think that it's funny when people want a true 3rd function on these tractors vs just a diverter. They think that they want to work 3 functions at the same time when in reality it is about all you can do to get 2 to work together.

On the positive side, there isn't anything wrong with the tractors. :thumbsup: