DK40SE Cranks But No Start

[Coyote machine]

It is not supposed to work that way, Mine will not crank with the selector in any gear. Tested it this afternoon. when I got on it and tried to started it up, and without thinking I just turned the key, and it would not crank, it was in L, moved the lever to N and she fired right up. No smoking no sputtering, but it is NOT cold here, must be at least 60 degrees, what a contrast to yesterday, never got above 34, and windy, misty and followed by a cold rain most of the night, but when the sun came out about 10 this morning, it really warmed up. I could be wrong, but my personal feeling is that your no start problem has nothing to do with the range selector sensor.

James K0UA

I have to respectfully disagree on this one James. The OP says he can crank in all gears, which should never happen. I suspect that if he looks closely there is either wire damage by mice or something similar causing intermittent and erroneous start in any gear conditions, or the pot is just bad and causing the symptoms.
The PTO lockout is functioning correctly - as should the 'pot' controlled gear selector when in L/M/H.

There could be other issues with wiring that have not yet been discovered, so until the OP does some wire tracing I believe we've done what we can to diagnose this problem.

If this were my tractor I'd make real sure I put it in neutral and locked the brake until this issue is solved. Keep any bystanders way away too.

 

[k0ua]

I have to respectfully disagree on this one James. The OP says he can crank in all gears, which should never happen. I suspect that if he looks closely there is either wire damage by mice or something similar causing intermittent and erroneous start in any gear conditions, or the pot is just bad and causing the symptoms.
The PTO lockout is functioning correctly - as should the 'pot' controlled gear selector when in L/M/H.

There could be other issues with wiring that have not yet been discovered, so until the OP does some wire tracing I believe we've done what we can to diagnose this problem.

If this were my tractor I'd make real sure I put it in neutral and locked the brake until this issue is solved. Keep any bystanders way away too.

CM.. I don't think we disagree.. notice the word "not" in front of the work "supposed"

 

[Coyote machine]

CM.. I don't think we disagree.. notice the word "not" in front of the work "supposed"

I read your post correctly, and did notice the 'not'. So what confuses me about what you were saying is: "...my personal feeling is that your no start problem has nothing to do with the range selector sensor. "

So if not the selector sensor, then what are you thinking is the cause?

I certainly don't think the fuel the OP mentioned has anything to do with the start condition- do you?

 

[k0ua]

I read your post correctly, and did notice the 'not'. So what confuses me about what you were saying is: "...my personal feeling is that your no start problem has nothing to do with the range selector sensor. "

So if not the selector sensor, then what are you thinking is the cause?

I certainly don't think the fuel the OP mentioned has anything to do with the start condition- do you?

Well I am a loss as to why the tractor does not start reliably, but I suspect a fuel issue or something related to that. I believe the range selector sensor only deals with whether the tractor will crank or not, (and the gear range indicator lights of course) but nothing to do with the ability of the tractor to start. I think his wiggling of the range selector is coincidental to the tractor finally starting. Remember he has never had a problem with cranking the tractor, even to the point of originally running the battery down the first day the problem manifested itself. But I will readily admit I don't know why the tractor will crank but not start (some of the time). If it was mine when it cranked and did not start, I would go crack one of the fuel injector lines and see if fuel squirted out of it while cranking.

James K0UA

 

[ritcheyvs]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume you have a newer model, perhaps HST. If I'm looking at a relevant schematic, the starter and glow relays and the start solenoid are all controlled by modules on these new tractors. Who knows what's inside these modules? But Diesel basics are the same as the old tractors. Does it crank? Is there voltage at the glow plugs? Does the stop solenoid retract? Those are the only electrical things that effect starting for a mechanically injected Diesel (common rail systems are a whole different animal).

You can hear if it cranks. You can use a volt meter to test if the glow plugs have power during the glow cycle and while cranking. You can hear the stop solenoid retract but it may not stay retracted. The newer stop solenoids use two circuits: a high current circuit to retract the solenoid followed by a low current circuit to hold it in the retracted position. You may not detect a defective "hold" circuit by ear and the injection pump won't supply fuel unless the stop solenoid stays retracted. You can check this by slightly opening one of the B-nuts on top of the injection pump while someone cranks the engine; visible fuel should come out if the stop solenoid (and injection pump) are working normally.

If all this checks out, your problem isn't electrical. Fuel has been mentioned. Also some diesels are hard to start cold if the valves need adjustment. The fact it starts some times and runs well tends to rule out a serious mechanical problem.

 

[Coyote machine]

James K0UA,

I see your point. So it would seem there are two possibly separate problems, one related to the ability to start in any gear, the second being hard starts, intermittently.
So if we apply logic the first is likely electrical malfunction of the lockout of in gear starting, and is likely the 'pot' at the gear selector or wiring to or from same.

The intermittent start might be lack of fuel getting to the engine possibly as a result of the stop solenoid portion of the no start in gear portion of the 'pot' working as it should, (intermittently) and the stop solenoid part of the circuit is also working properly, (at times), to stop fuel from being delivered when the electrical system tells the stop solenoid to remain closed. When the stop solenoid is allowed to open fuel is present and the tractor starts, REGARDLESS of the gear selector's actual position.
Does this seem to fit for you?

 

[milkman636]

Agreed. If it heats, cranks, and gets fuel it should start. It sounds like the OP has everything but fuel to the injectors. I would focus on checking for fuel obstrution and checking the stop solenoid circuit. If you get the loud click and see voltage at the holding coil it would confirm that there is not a safety keeping it closed.

 

[k0ua]

James K0UA,

I see your point. So it would seem there are two possibly separate problems, one related to the ability to start in any gear, the second being hard starts, intermittently.
So if we apply logic the first is likely electrical malfunction of the lockout of in gear starting, and is likely the 'pot' at the gear selector or wiring to or from same.

The intermittent start might be lack of fuel getting to the engine possibly as a result of the stop solenoid portion of the no start in gear portion of the 'pot' working as it should, (intermittently) and the stop solenoid part of the circuit is also working properly, (at times), to stop fuel from being delivered when the electrical system tells the stop solenoid to remain closed. When the stop solenoid is allowed to open fuel is present and the tractor starts, REGARDLESS of the gear selector's actual position.
Does this seem to fit for you?

Sounds good, of course the controller module is common to all of this. Intermittent's are super hard to fix. But since it cranks, (even though it should not crank when in a gear range) we still need to know if the fuel solenoid is holding back or not. and whether this for sure is the basis for the no start problem. It would be so much easier to fix with a paper electrical schematic and standing beside the tractor with a voltmeter. Another problem I have is the schematic I have is Australian and the parts of the diagram that are different are these. My diagram has no lamps for the gears L M H. and the controller has outputs for these but shows them hooked to nothing. And the troubleshooting section shows shows a couple drawings of the range selector sensor and describes what it is and how to test it, and even includes a photograph to show how to find it and the stupid thing does not even appear on the overall schematic at all. I need a better manual. And yes I am looking at the proper schematic, the HST ROPS one. but it is just not there.The schematic is somewhat frustrating..

James K0UA

 

[ritcheyvs]

Agreed. If it heats, cranks, and gets fuel ...

I don't recall any confirmation that it heats. This is the most likely cause IMO. If it was the SS hold circuit, the engine would likely quit at some point after starting.

 

[wallace]

To me its sounds like he is have a issue with the glows plugs.
A cranking...cranking...puff whites..cranking starts puffing white smoke...leads me to believe that the glow plugs arn't working.

If he was to crack a injector line loose up on the head and seen fuel there, than I would be checking glows plugs for 12v

 

[Coyote machine]

Hello to the OP. Where are you? You have plenty of suggestions as to what to check waiting on you to update us all...:confused3:

 

[JohninCT]

Hello to the OP. Where are you? You have plenty of suggestions as to what to check waiting on you to update us all...:confused3:

Hello... I'm still here. Wife started and used the tractor today with no issues but it was warm (in low 40s F). I'll have to check out the glow plugs maybe this weekend when I have time to spend on it.

Thanks to all for the suggestions. Does anyone have a schematic to tell me why the starter cranks when the select lever is in gear when it is not supposed to?

 

[Coyote machine]

Schematics are copywrited materials and therefore not allowed to be posted on TBN. You can get a service manual from your Kioti dealer, which will have detailed color schematics.
As already suggested, you should check the wires running to/from the 'pot' below the gear select lever and let us know what you find.

 

[k0ua]

Schematics are copywrited materials and therefore not allowed to be posted on TBN. You can get a service manual from your Kioti dealer, which will have detailed color schematics.
As already suggested, you should check the wires running to/from the 'pot' below the gear select lever and let us know what you find.

The Pot is 2000 ohm from each end to end. so measure the center to each end and move it and see if it is smooth and does not "Open up" somewhere in the middle. Of course it would vary from near zero to close to 2000 ohms from center to either end as you move it.

James K0UA

 

[JohninCT]

OK so here is the latest on the issue... tried to crank the engine with the selector lever in gear (L, M, or H) and it begins but quickly cuts out the starter as normal like everyone has explained. Not sure why it didn't before... but, put it into neutral and it starts right up. I got underneath and looked at the wires and connectors to the selector lever pot and there are no problems (frayed, cracked, etc). I didn't bother to take the connectors apart because reach was a bit of a problem and I didn't want to risk damaging a wire or connector trying to get it apart... don't fix what ain't broke right If it acts up and doesn't start again maybe I'll be more intrusive. Right now, everything is seems to be working as it should so no complaining right?

 

[murphy1244]

OK so here is the latest on the issue... tried to crank the engine with the selector lever in gear (L, M, or H) and it begins but quickly cuts out the starter as normal like everyone has explained. Not sure why it didn't before... but, put it into neutral and it starts right up. I got underneath and looked at the wires and connectors to the selector lever pot and there are no problems (frayed, cracked, etc). I didn't bother to take the connectors apart because reach was a bit of a problem and I didn't want to risk damaging a wire or connector trying to get it apart... don't fix what ain't broke right If it acts up and doesn't start again maybe I'll be more intrusive. Right now, everything is seems to be working as it should so no complaining right?

No harm no fowl.

 

[ewhyte]

What year is your DK40? Kioti had a bad batch of mechanical fuel pumps a few years back (say around 2006).
I doubt you are having problems with your neutral lock out. You shouldn't be able to crank the motor over at all if the lock out was causing problems.

 

[JohninCT]

What year is your DK40? Kioti had a bad batch of mechanical fuel pumps a few years back (say around 2006).
I doubt you are having problems with your neutral lock out. You shouldn't be able to crank the motor over at all if the lock out was causing problems.

I bought the tractor in the fall of 2009. I don't know when it was manufactured but I'm assuming sometime around 2009.

 

[ritcheyvs]

See: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kioti-owning-operating/256528-how-tell-what-year-tractor.html#post2989844

You do want to know the year your tractor was made (or at least the serial number) because there are numerous design changes from year to year (and sometimes in the same year) which determine which parts fit your machine. Generally, the online parts catalogs (like on the MIE site) are more accurate and current than the service manuals. For example, the only available service manual for my 2006 DK45S shows an engine stop solenoid and injection pump configuration different from my tractor. But the online parts diagrams are right.

 

[michaelmoten]

What year is your DK40? Kioti had a bad batch of mechanical fuel pumps a few years back (say around 2006).
I doubt you are having problems with your neutral lock out. You shouldn't be able to crank the motor over at all if the lock out was causing problems.

I must have had one of these on a DK45. Had to send the pump off to be rebuilt, $750. Kioti wouldn't sell me parts only a whole pump $1,200 with my core being sent back. All the gears were "rounded off" and was an obvious defect in the pump. This tractor is no longer around.

That being said my tractor did something pretty similar to this. The only way we are going to know anything is if there is a fuel line cracked.