Ford 8N having trouble starting -- many troubleshooting steps take -- suggestions?

[PorkChopsMmm]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

1949 8N with front distributor that has been converted to 12V and not by me. I am somewhat mechanical but don't know much about carbs, distributors, points, etc. I have done lots of searching and am wondering if I am on the right path.

Symptoms -- Tractor was working fine and then recently I was having issues with the tractor taking longer to start (which has led me to running down the battery a few times and needing to be charged) and randomly shutting off while in use. This is in Michigan and previous to these issues it would fire up strongly even when 0 degrees outside. I thought I was having issues with my points or distributor because it would run for 15 to 30 minutes and shut off and be impossible to start again for a few hours, but this last time it has been 2 days and I *still* cannot get it to start. A few days ago while it was running if I tried plowing too much snow the engine would spit and almost stall unless I put the clutch in and let it run for a few minutes. This usually resolved itself although once or twice the tractor shut off with a backfire.

Short version of troubleshooting:
- Gas tank is 3/4 full with new gas
- Gas knob has been tried rotated to 2 turns and all the way
- Tractor will keep turning over until battery dies without firing
- Jumped wires on ignition switch
- Checked one spark plug and it was getting spark while cranking (held close to engine block while cranking)
- Carb fast drips (almost pours) gas after trying to start while choking for too long -- check the single plug I can remove (on the side of the road) and no gas is on the plug
- Poured small amount of gas into the engine after taking out the spark plug -- with it being jumped it will fire once or twice but that is it
- Tried starting while jump starting without pouring gas into spark plug hole -- no dice
- Tried starting while being towed for ~1 mile -- would putter and almost start but when I put the clutch in to let it run on it's own it would die.

My buddy helping me tow figures that it isn't getting gas -- the one spark plug I could get out is not soaked in gas and towing it will not jump start it even though it was producing a spark.

My tentative next steps were going to be to put in new spark plugs and maybe put in some carb cleaner or something?

Any help or tips would be appreciated. I don't have a garage, have limited tools, and it is cold outside but I will try my best to follow any advice you all have. Thanks!

 

[murphy1244]

:welcome: Hopefully I bumped you up and Sound Guy can help you out.

 

[94BULLITT]

Welcome to the fourm.

When you had the plug out how did it look?

Try shooting some carb cleaner, starting fliud or gas in the carb and see if it will fire.

 

[PorkChopsMmm]

Thanks for the help! The plug looked used but was not blackened by soot or anything.

I have been shooting starting fluid into the carb quite a few times and it never seemed to have an effect. Does starting fluid congeal or anything if not used or if it is cold?

 

[94BULLITT]

Thanks for the help! The plug looked used but was not blackened by soot or anything.

I have been shooting starting fluid into the carb quite a few times and it never seemed to have an effect. Does starting fluid congeal or anything if not used or if it is cold?

Was there any gas on the plug?
Try hand choking it. Open the the throttle all the way and put your hand over the carb inlet and crank it with the key off. If you get gas on your hand you have fuel getting to it, if you don't you aren't getting fuel.

 

[mehig]

Has your tractor been changed over to a 12 volt system. If so there may be a rectifer voltage regulator between the distributor and power supply. It's basically a circuit that steps down the voltage for the distributor...if you have one it will most likely be a rectangle white ceramic box between the hot wire from your ignition switch to the distributor.

 

[Soundguy]

forget changing plugs.. and forget the add to the tank carb cleaner.

test her on start fluid.. if she starts and runs on start fluid.. cleant he carb.

quickie clean is to take fual line off, and bottom drain plug out.. use carb spray with stray ( watch eyes ) and give a quick few shots into the hole gas line goes in thru elbow.

unscrew main needle.. give shots in there.. reseat needle, open 2 turns.

put fuel line back on. open valve.. see what type of flow you get out bottom.. if a stream.. add plug and try starting.

post back

try it.

 

[PorkChopsMmm]

Was there any gas on the plug?
Try hand choking it. Open the the throttle all the way and put your hand over the carb inlet and crank it with the key off. If you get gas on your hand you have fuel getting to it, if you don't you aren't getting fuel.

I took the battery out to charge it, so I can't try it now, but I think that fuel would come out because I forgot to turn the key on once and while cranking it fuel was coming out fast from the carb.

Has your tractor been changed over to a 12 volt system. If so there may be a rectifer voltage regulator between the distributor and power supply. It's basically a circuit that steps down the voltage for the distributor...if you have one it will most likely be a rectangle white ceramic box between the hot wire from your ignition switch to the distributor.

It has been changed over to 12V. Would this rectifier going bad make it not start... or even tow-start?

forget changing plugs.. and forget the add to the tank carb cleaner.

test her on start fluid.. if she starts and runs on start fluid.. cleant he carb.

quickie clean is to take fual line off, and bottom drain plug out.. use carb spray with stray ( watch eyes ) and give a quick few shots into the hole gas line goes in thru elbow.

unscrew main needle.. give shots in there.. reseat needle, open 2 turns.

put fuel line back on. open valve.. see what type of flow you get out bottom.. if a stream.. add plug and try starting.

post back

try it.

Thanks Sound Guy. I will try tomorrow night since I am charging the battery now. I did try spraying starter fluid into the air inlet of the carb -- didn't seem to help. I just picked up some carb cleaner so I will spray some in the gas line hole and main needle tonight.

Does letting the carb cleaner sit in there overnight harm anything? If I spray it in there tonight I won't be able to start it until tomorrow night.

My (N)Everstart battery is ~5 months old from Walmart but when trying to crank it so much it seems to be loosing juice fast. I want to try and get it topped off before trying to start again.

 

[Soundguy]

still i see a few problems.

a 12v car battery that goes dead that fast trying to start is just that.. a DEAD battery. I suspect you are not charging it up nearly enough..a nd / or the tractor charge system is not operating.

carb cleaner flashes off quickly.. like in seconds..

so far you have said it has spark, yet you said it won't pop on start fluid.

that's a mutually exclusive evennt.

if it does not pop on start fluid.. then it doens't have spark.

PS.. there is no recitifier circuit as mentioned between the 'power' supply' and the dizzy.

this isn't a ufo.. it's a late 30's technology implementation from the kettering ignition system that was already old when the N was thought of.

a 12v converted front mount needs a 12v battery, and either.. a 12v / 2.5 ohgm coil AND the oem ballast resistor onthe dash.. OR the oem 1 ohm 6v coil, AND the OEM ballast resistor onthe dash AND a converting resistor.. usually a 8ne10306 or other .5 to .8 ohm resistor will do.

without those the coil can overheat and or the points can burn.

post back

 

[94BULLITT]

Why don't you leave your charger on while you are cranking it over

 

[PorkChopsMmm]

Why don't you leave your charger on while you are cranking it over

For the last few days it was stuck either in the middle of or on the side of our dirt road (well, snow covered dirt road). I just got it towed back to the house yesterday. A lot of these tests I mentioned above were with jumper cables hooked up to tractor from my buddies truck. We are receiving freezing rain right now which may extend until tomorrow -- so I will try these tips hopefully tomorrow night.

 

[PorkChopsMmm]

still i see a few problems.

a 12v car battery that goes dead that fast trying to start is just that.. a DEAD battery. I suspect you are not charging it up nearly enough..a nd / or the tractor charge system is not operating.

Agreed. I am charging it up now but I may just exchange it at Walmart after I run some tests tomorrow night.

so far you have said it has spark, yet you said it won't pop on start fluid.

that's a mutually exclusive evennt.

if it does not pop on start fluid.. then it doens't have spark.

I sprayed quite a bit of starter fluid in the carb and tried to get it to turn over -- no dice. Putting gas directly in the spark plug hole got it to fire a little but not much. I was able to get one spark plug out on the side of the road and hold it close to the engine block while holding the starter button down. I saw sparks.

...without those the coil can overheat and or the points can burn.

I am afraid of this. I don't know much about the distributor and coil -- only what I have read. If I undo the two bolts holding it on can I take it off the tractor and bring it in the house for pictures?

post back

Will do!

P.S. When trying to start the amp meter was jumping back and forth from 0 to -5 -- which if I read correctly is a good sign because it means the points are working?

 

[DHB]

I had the same problem with my 49 8n in would stop on its own then after a bit I could start it again . The problem was in the carburetor the needle valve for the float would stick and no fuel could get into the carburetor so it would stall . I had to take the carburetor apart and clean it , worked great after that.

 

[PorkChopsMmm]

DHB -- Thank you for the info. I will spray some carb cleaner in there tonight and see if I can get it to start. Cleaning the carb is a whole lot easier, to me, than digging into the distributor or points.

I found this diagram -- when I unscrew the main/power mixture and idle mixture screws are there any chances of springs, etc. popping out? I will be doing this outside and don't want to lose anything. Thanks again for all of the help, I will post back tonight with results.

 

[Soundguy]

yes.. 2 bolts removes the distribuitor to bring inside.

and yes.. a bouncing ammeter upon start is correct.

 

[Soundguy]

there are tension springs onthe needles themselves.. but nothing lives in the holes except the needles and their seats.

DHB -- Thank you for the info. I will spray some carb cleaner in there tonight and see if I can get it to start. Cleaning the carb is a whole lot easier, to me, than digging into the distributor or points.

I found this diagram -- when I unscrew the main/power mixture and idle mixture screws are there any chances of springs, etc. popping out? I will be doing this outside and don't want to lose anything. Thanks again for all of the help, I will post back tonight with results.

 

[DHB]

Be carefull when you seperate the top from the bottom that you don't ruin the gasket. clean and blow air threw all the jets.

 

[PorkChopsMmm]

OK, here are some updates. In summary -- I don't think it is the carb or fuel line. They were basically "clean" when I took them apart and I couldn't find any gunk. I still cleaned them up with carb cleaner, blew air through the jets, etc. It all seemed to check out.

Prior to removing the carb I made sure the ignition was off and cranked the engine -- fuel started fast pouring out of the carb (air intake pipe off). I turned the ignition on and sprayed starter fluid directly into the carb -- did not even try to turn over. Never even heard a single "combustion" of the starter fluid.

I have a few thoughts about what it could be...

- Spark plugs? If my spark plugs have some moisture resting on the indent around the top of the plugs... could that limit spark?
- Could my starter "button" be causing the problem? In the 12V conversion the prior owner switched to a push button start. It has worked fine so far and to try and eliminate the "button" I touch a metal object to the terminals of the push button (yellow wires in the pictures below) and there was no change in how the engine tried to turn over.
- Could my key switch be the issue? I reseated the key, checked the wires, etc. (black wires in the picture below). Do these fail often? Is there a way to test or bypass this switch (purely for the sake of testing and would be immediately hooked back up)?

Carb while being shot with carb cleaner and prior to removal. Wow, the flash makes the tractor look horrible!

While spraying the inside of the carb with starter fluid. When trying to start, and stopping the cranking, gas poured out of the air inlet.

Starter button, located under the amp meter. I believe this is a location for the light switch?

Ignition switch with the black wires, starter button with the yellow.

I believe this is the rectifier you all have talked about?

Pulling carb off of the tractor, even gently, resulted in a ripped gasket. This is where you can start to see things look clean.

I tested the air holes -- air easily blew through all of them.

Floats looked good -- not filled with fluid or damaged.

This looked clean and the flap moved easily.

Fuel filter looked clean. Some minor sand/rust particles but that was after shaking it vigorously. Fuel flowed easily through this prior to removal.

Thanks again for all of your continued help!

 

[94BULLITT]

OK, here are some updates. In summary -- I don't think it is the carb or fuel line. They were basically "clean" when I took them apart and I couldn't find any gunk. I still cleaned them up with carb cleaner, blew air through the jets, etc. It all seemed to check out.

Prior to removing the carb I made sure the ignition was off and cranked the engine -- fuel started fast pouring out of the carb (air intake pipe off). I turned the ignition on and sprayed starter fluid directly into the carb -- did not even try to turn over. Never even heard a single "combustion" of the starter fluid.

I have a few thoughts about what it could be...

- Spark plugs? If my spark plugs have some moisture resting on the indent around the top of the plugs... could that limit spark?
- Could my starter "button" be causing the problem? In the 12V conversion the prior owner switched to a push button start. It has worked fine so far and to try and eliminate the "button" I touch a metal object to the terminals of the push button (yellow wires in the pictures below) and there was no change in how the engine tried to turn over.
- Could my key switch be the issue? I reseated the key, checked the wires, etc. (black wires in the picture below). Do these fail often? Is there a way to test or bypass this switch (purely for the sake of testing and would be immediately hooked back up)?

Carb while being shot with carb cleaner and prior to removal. Wow, the flash makes the tractor look horrible!

While spraying the inside of the carb with starter fluid. When trying to start, and stopping the cranking, gas poured out of the air inlet.

Starter button, located under the amp meter. I believe this is a location for the light switch?

Ignition switch with the black wires, starter button with the yellow.

I believe this is the rectifier you all have talked about?

Pulling carb off of the tractor, even gently, resulted in a ripped gasket. This is where you can start to see things look clean.

I tested the air holes -- air easily blew through all of them.

Floats looked good -- not filled with fluid or damaged.

This looked clean and the flap moved easily.

Fuel filter looked clean. Some minor sand/rust particles but that was after shaking it vigorously. Fuel flowed easily through this prior to removal.

Thanks again for all of your continued help!

If the motor is turning over the starter button is fine. The moisture you are talking about on the plugs will not hurt anything. That picture is of the resistor not a rectifier.

1. Are you sure you have spark?

2. Does the tractor original style fuel shut off in the tank? If so all that it is probably stopped up (in the tank) with crud like you have in the filter.

3. Has the tractor been sitting for a along period?

4. Does it have good compression on all cylinders?

 

[murphy1244]

If the motor is turning over the starter button is fine. The moisture you are talking about on the plugs will not hurt anything. That picture is of the resistor not a rectifier.

1. Are you sure you have spark?

2. Does the tractor original style fuel shut off in the tank? If so all that it is probably stopped up (in the tank) with crud like you have in the filter.

3. Has the tractor been sitting for a along period?

4. Does it have good compression on all cylinders?

And those connections look awful.