2014 GM Sierra/Silverado

[timswi]

We already had lots of gas engines built to run like diesels in the 70's- 80's. They were awful.
When GM started stuffing their diesels in Fords & GM mediums way back, it improved medium duty reliability immediately.
I was fueling up today and a Ford pulled up with a 370 gasser with the typical exhaust manifold leak they all eventually got. I thought I was back in 1984 driving my F-700 with a whopping 175HP gas motor.

You're not in 1984...My late 90's V10 is about to sound like a machine gun...The manifold studs are rotting off . Just waiting for it to start. And it will.

There will probably be a set of Banks headers in my future (sadly at $1500 per set)..My '70 Chevelle still has the original manifolds and bolts..Never blew a plug on it either...At least Banks was smart enough to make everything out of stainless given the pathetic size of the stud/nut assembly that Ford dreamed up.

 

[JDgreen227]

We already had lots of gas engines built to run like diesels in the 70's- 80's. They were awful.
When GM started stuffing their diesels in Fords & GM mediums way back, it improved medium duty reliability immediately.
I was fueling up today and a Ford pulled up with a 370 gasser with the typical exhaust manifold leak they all eventually got. I thought I was back in 1984 driving my F-700 with a whopping 175HP gas motor.

One of the box trucks I used to drive was an '87 F-600 with the 370-4V, it spent almost as much time in the shop as it did out of it. What I remember most of all about it was the 5.5 mpg it delivered....after less than a year, the fuel credit card was cracked in half because it got run thru the card machines so frequently.

 

[buickanddeere]

I wish this were true. I like the 6.2 L a lot but there is a big difference between 417 pound feet and 765 at much lower rpm. This point made, I do see where future higher torque numbers from gas engines with multigeared tranmissions could close the gap between gasoline and diesel power in work or pulling applications. I would not at all be surprised if gm could get an updated 6.2 to get 23-24 mpg unloaded on the highway if geared appropriately and in a more aerodynamic package. Even if trucks there is a good bit of room to improve the drag coefficient which would result in much better highway economy, regardless of engine.

John M

What does it matter? The torque on the drive wheels is the same.

 

[buickanddeere]

We already had lots of gas engines built to run like diesels in the 70's- 80's. They were awful.
When GM started stuffing their diesels in Fords & GM mediums way back, it improved medium duty reliability immediately.
I was fueling up today and a Ford pulled up with a 370 gasser with the typical exhaust manifold leak they all eventually got. I thought I was back in 1984 driving my F-700 with a whopping 175HP gas motor.

How can you compare a carburated gasser of the 60's,70's and 80's and decide to purchase a diesel today because of the difference?
Don't know where you have been the past three decades but Rip Van Winkle but things have changed.
Have you looked under the hood of a 2007 and later diesel and a gasser of the same era? In particular the direct injection gasser?
The diesel is the complex, costly to maintain engine. The diesel costs much more to purchase. Every scheduled service is more expensive. The fuel costs more per gallon. The cost of diesel service after warrenty expires will make you wish you had bought the gasser.
Only thing I see diesels do around here is have a stack or two up through the bed with no muffler and a programmer . Lots of smoke, noise and look at my big p*nis.

 

[Hay Dude]

You're not in 1984...My late 90's V10 is about to sound like a machine gun...The manifold studs are rotting off . Just waiting for it to start. And it will.

There will probably be a set of Banks headers in my future (sadly at $1500 per set)..My '70 Chevelle still has the original manifolds and bolts..Never blew a plug on it either...At least Banks was smart enough to make everything out of stainless given the pathetic size of the stud/nut assembly that Ford dreamed up.

I hear ya. After the 370/429's came the Ford 460's. Still blew manifold gaskets. You could always here a Ford truck gasser coming from a 1/2 mile away.....
tap-tap-tap-TAP-TAP-TAP TAP

Oh man, those were the days. Ford 370/429's and 460's with a whopping 175-225 HP and about 390 torque. I remember them well. You needed a good set of 4 way flashers and a couple quarts of motor oil to get through the day.
Gas engines have come so far since then.

 

[crashz]

And who could forget the small behind those lumbering elephants? A mixture of unburnt fuel and throw-up.

I recently towed my Bobcat for a good long run (3 hrs) and up through a steep mountain pass. While my truck performed admirably (2012 2500HD), the 6.0L gas engine was screaming at 4-5K rpms uphill. I was more than able to keep up with traffic and move at the speed limits. However, I can see the attraction to the diesel when you have a load hitched up. It certainly will move along fwith less effort.

But if I had the diesel, I feel like I would have had the ablility to accidentally throw the truck and trailer into some tight turns a bit to fast. As it was, I caught myself going to fast for the conditions and having to brake a little harder than I felt comfortable on occasion. Even with the very capable new chassis in all three truck brands, I feel that the diesels are just to much engine for the truck type. Too easy to get a huge load rolling to dangerous speeds.

 

[sklunk]

My understanding is that the 1/2 ton trucks will be a full redesign and the 3/4 ton are likely to follow by about 6-8 months and are likely mainly external styling and much-needed interior upgrades. As noted, for 2011 model year, the 2500/3500 series trucks were essentially redesigned aside from styling, as the budget at that time did not allow that apparently. There have been some spy shots of the heavily-disguised 1500 level truck with interior shots that show a complete interior redesign. I am not in the automotive industry, but this is what I have heard. Those with more specific information are welcomed to contradict this.

John M

This is correct. 1500's will be ALL new. HD's will be MOSTLY new, only SOME sections of the frame carry over (the most recent frames are pretty good!) The 1500 Silverado will be unveiled Dec 13th, the 1500 Silverado and 1500 Sierra will both be at the Detroit Auto Show in January 2013. I'm not sure when the HD's will debut (probably fall of 2013).

 

[jcmseven]

What does it matter? The torque on the drive wheels is the same.

I am not sure I know what you mean here. Are you trying to say a diesel dura max with 765 pound feet of torque at less than 2000 rpm and 600 or more throughout its operational band from 1000-2600 rpm has applies the same torque to the drive wheels as a gas engine which has a max torque of just over 400 and similar rpm torque of 300 or less pound feet? With regard to the multigeared transmissions, my understanding is that this should allow whatever engine to spend the brunt of its time in the appropriate rpm for maxium efficiency and then progress out of less efficient ranges more quickly. Especially in a gasoline engine which has lower thermodynamic efficiency than a diesel this should certainly help fuel efficiency. I am not so sure I agree fully with the comment about diesel being much more expensive to maintain at least in my personal experience. For regular maintenance my gmc takes 10 quarts of oil, where my prior gasser took 6.5. The filter cost is roughly the same, so no real loss there. I do put in a wix HE fuel filter about every 15,000 miles but it can sometimes go longer. This costs me about $35.00 and I do it myself. My truck gets 20 mpg in unloaded highway driving, and about 13-14 pulling a trailer of up to #10000. My gasser got 17 unloaded and 7 mpg pulling 2000# less and did not pull it as well nor was it rated for as high a gross weight. True, there is some additional cost associated with owning a diesel, such as the Allison transmission fluid and filter change in mine and the cost of fuel being higher, and I would not argue that owning a diesel is cheaper than gas, but the cost difference is pretty small day to day and with appropriate maintainence the diesel will stand up to hard work better and last much longer due to its heavier componetry. My neighbor has a silverado duramax with 300,000 or so miles on it. Aside from regular maintainence he has never touched it with a wrench and pulls heavy gooseneck cattle trailers back and forth to the east coast of NC to and from sales. I can think of no gasoline pickup with similar miles that I would try that without a firm backup plan and his truck runs essentially like new with no signs of slowing down.

John M

 

[jcmseven]

I should also mention that my duramax is 100% stock, no chip, no stacks, no noise. It does not need all that as it runs quite well without those additions. I intend to keep it that way. Every blue moon, I wonder if I could get by again with a gas engine, but in a truck that weighs #7200 and is comfortable, very powerful, stone reliable, easy to drive and consistently gets 2-3 mpg better than my wife's Acura MDX (2011 model) just driving around a cannot see trading it, even if I used it as a daily driver, which I don't.

John M

 

[Hay Dude]

I should also mention that my duramax is 100% stock, no chip, no stacks, no noise. It does not need all that as it runs quite well without those additions. I intend to keep it that way. Every blue moon, I wonder if I could get by again with a gas engine, but in a truck that weighs #7200 and is comfortable, very powerful, stone reliable, easy to drive and consistently gets 2-3 mpg better than my wife's Acura MDX (2011 model) just driving around a cannot see trading it, even if I used it as a daily driver, which I don't.

John M

Keep it. They were probably the best running diesel pickups ever built. I've had GM & Ford diesels from 1991-present and in the genre you own, there's just no comparison.
Don't want to flame Dodge. may be very good, but haven't owned a Dodge diesel since mid 90's.

 

[buickanddeere]

Lets try the durability past 150,000, 200,000 miles plus with a 2007 and later pickup. The cat converter, particulate filter, urea injection, turbo variable waste gate, EGR, high pressure fuel injection system, glow plugs, two batteries, two alternators. An over sized, over priced starter.
. There are very few diesel owners out there that honestly make a diesel pickup pay. For the heavy load hauling many pickup towed loads should behind a small single axle tractor.
The majority or diesel pickups are driven as personal transportation for 1-2 people . And rarely see any load on the trailer hitch or in the box.
As for long term durability? Since fuel injection and unleaded gasoline. Gassers that exceed 300,000 miles are the norm. By that amount of road time, miles and corrosion from road salt and atmospheric moisture. The body and frame is rotten and the vehicle needs to be scraped.
The EPA and CAFE are going to keep inventing new rules and regulations to force Motor vehicles in general and diesels in particular off the road.
If a diesel truck today was a 24 valve Cummins with just a mechanical P pump, a turbo and a six speeds manual transmission. I would be all for it.
Most of these diesel vs. gas advocates are either stuck in 1985 and comparing diesel vs. gas. Or they have some emotional attachment to diesel and like the sound, smell and status.

 

[jcmseven]

I do not know that I'm buying it. While I do agree that increased government regulation has hurt prior diesel simplicity, the concept is far from dead v. gas in my mind. The diesel truck I mentioned is, in fact, a 2007 model post-DPF. I hear what you are saying and to some degree it has validity. I am not anti-gas engine. There are many gas engines out there (one being the 6.2L we cited) that have tremendous power, good longevity and reasonable fuel economy for the degree of performance one gets from the engine. While I know there are 300,000+ mile gas engines out there, I would be hard pressed to say these are ubiquitous and when one does see one, it usually sticks in the mind as exceptional service. This does not hold true with diesel, when such mileage would be considered "expected" or "average." Having owned mostly Fords in my life and a combination of diesel pickups and gas pickups including, but not limited to, 3 5.4L Fords, 2 F250 V-10s; 3 7.3L PSD's, and a 6.4 L F250, my current Duramax I can say without doubt, is the most reliable and economical truck to operate I have had, either diesel or gas, 1/2 ton or heavy duty. There has been no truck, even from that golden age and more simple time (and including the revered 7.3L PSD--among Ford owners anyway) that has come close to offering equivalent service in my case. While it appears to be almost impossible to stay a step ahead of federal regulations I think for the most part it has been done. Diesel is even making up ground in passenger cars again. I noticed even where Porsche, who just developed the Cayenne Hybrid, is now pushing the 3.0L Cayenne diesel they are now bringing to the US with plans to bring the 4.2L diesel in the future. I do not think the average Porsche owner would be towing around a #7,000 utility trailer, but he/she can now if they want and get 30 MPG in average highway driving unloaded. If the complexity were so great that it was not worth diving into the market, I doubt Porsche and other automakers who could go another direction or opt out altogether would be looking to expand this market as they are. I do not think these companies are stuck in the 1980's when making these decisions. When I bought my truck, I was told how terrible the mileage would be, and how much complexity would hurt the performance and reliability and so far this has proven not the case. I hope my truck runs well for many years more, but if it died tomorrow I would still say it was worth having and operating and the performance and cost of maintenance were both "better than expected." I personally realize that the initial cost of ownership of a diesel is much higher than gas, but for those who pull or simply drive a lot of miles each year (or in my case both) it is likely still beneficial to consider and not that scary. Also, on average one will recoup a significant chunk of that investment back at resale because at least where I live, everyone seems to be looking for a good used diesel and is willing to pay for it.

John M

John M

 

[WilliamBos]

Reliability beyond that point is no problem. The OTR trucks and AG Tractors use the same system. Fear of owning a new one is non existentt for me.

Lets try the durability past 150,000, 200,000 miles plus with a 2007 and later pickup. The cat converter, particulate filter, urea injection, turbo variable waste gate, EGR, high pressure fuel injection system, glow plugs, two batteries, two alternators. An over sized, over priced starter.
. There are very few diesel owners out there that honestly make a diesel pickup pay. For the heavy load hauling many pickup towed loads should behind a small single axle tractor.
The majority or diesel pickups are driven as personal transportation for 1-2 people . And rarely see any load on the trailer hitch or in the box.
As for long term durability? Since fuel injection and unleaded gasoline. Gassers that exceed 300,000 miles are the norm. By that amount of road time, miles and corrosion from road salt and atmospheric moisture. The body and frame is rotten and the vehicle needs to be scraped.
The EPA and CAFE are going to keep inventing new rules and regulations to force Motor vehicles in general and diesels in particular off the road.
If a diesel truck today was a 24 valve Cummins with just a mechanical P pump, a turbo and a six speeds manual transmission. I would be all for it.
Most of these diesel vs. gas advocates are either stuck in 1985 and comparing diesel vs. gas. Or they have some emotional attachment to diesel and like the sound, smell and status.

 

[Hay Dude]

Lets try the durability past 150,000, 200,000 miles plus with a 2007 and later pickup. The cat converter, particulate filter, urea injection, turbo variable waste gate, EGR, high pressure fuel injection system, glow plugs, two batteries, two alternators. An over sized, over priced starter.
. There are very few diesel owners out there that honestly make a diesel pickup pay. For the heavy load hauling many pickup towed loads should behind a small single axle tractor.
The majority or diesel pickups are driven as personal transportation for 1-2 people . And rarely see any load on the trailer hitch or in the box.
As for long term durability? Since fuel injection and unleaded gasoline. Gassers that exceed 300,000 miles are the norm. By that amount of road time, miles and corrosion from road salt and atmospheric moisture. The body and frame is rotten and the vehicle needs to be scraped.
The EPA and CAFE are going to keep inventing new rules and regulations to force Motor vehicles in general and diesels in particular off the road.
If a diesel truck today was a 24 valve Cummins with just a mechanical P pump, a turbo and a six speeds manual transmission. I would be all for it.
Most of these diesel vs. gas advocates are either stuck in 1985 and comparing diesel vs. gas. Or they have some emotional attachment to diesel and like the sound, smell and status.

Fantasy
Gassers that exceed 300,000 are the exception.

 

[timswi]

Fantasy
Gassers that exceed 300,000 are the exception.

I don't know, I've hit 200K easily with 2 Chevy 1500 4x4's with no repairs beyond the normal maintenance stuff...If I didn't have such a long commute, I'd have gone for 300k...I think they might have very well made it.

 

[WilliamBos]

Fantasy
Gassers that exceed 300,000 are the exception.

Wrong! Loads of LS GM truck engines on the road with that or more on it. They are 350,000 mile engines at minumum.

 

[Peacock]

Wrong! Loads of LS GM truck engines on the road with that or more on it. They are 350,000 mile engines at minumum.

Absolutely. The Gen. III and IV GM engines last a long time.

 

[JDgreen227]

Longest mileage vehicle we ever had was a '92 Olds 98 with the GM 3.8 V6, it had about 122,000 when we sold it to the third owner and she ran it to 214,000 before the body finally gave up...but the engine was still running well and had never had anything replaced but things like water pumps, etc. Had it not been so rusty I am sure it would have gone another 30-40,000 miles.

 

[buickanddeere]

Lets add the extra annual cost for additional insurance on the diesel vs. gas .extra interest paid in finance costs too.
Think too over the life of the diesel, how much energy is used acceleration the extra weight of the diesel truck?
The diesel only pays back in a small percent of applications now. Introduce the direct injection V8 to the diesel comparison. Being within a mpg or two of diesel and using cheaper fuel. There is no way to ever make the diesel option payback in the non existent savings.
As for those worried about high rpms. It's a truck that runs less than 10,000 hrs in it's lifetime. iirc there are 146,000 miles and 4600 hrs on my truck. A highway vehicle that cruises at 1900rpm and climbs a steep hill with a heavy load at 4500rpm for less than a minute doesn't mean beans.
This isn't a 24/7 genset, pump or marine propulsion application
where 8760 hrs per year is a concern. And where a 600rpm engine is preferred over an 1800rpm engine.

 

[jcmseven]

Buickanddeere might be right on some of these opinions. It is true that the savings benefits between diesel and gas operations in light duty trucks has diminished over recent years, but it is still there in more than a few cases. I cannot over generalize because I do not know everyone's circumstance but in my case there were no finance costs as I bought the truck, the insurance cost was only a couple dollars different between gas and diesel versions of the same truck so almost not figurable into the numerator, and the mileage difference was more than a mpg or two and much more pulling. I do not know what to say about the acceleration and weight energy cost statement except to say that my running hourly total is 2095 as of yesterday on the engine and I have 88,820 miles on my rig also as of yesterday so either I am driving too fast or not idling as much (though diesels are also more fuel efficient at idle speed than gas). Not sure which, but either way prorating it out based on current trends I will have about 3800 hours on the truck at 150,000 miles. There can be a lot of fuel burnt in 800 hours also, though I realize and appreciate the potential difference in applications between users. I also am not overly concerned about RPM, as with most of us what it takes is what it takes. Where I live, the gradients are pretty long though and an engine that revs to pull a load may be doing so for several minutes potentially multiple times per day. With improved fabrication and lubricants this is not the concern it used to be, but climbing the grade to the homestead in the diesel at 2,100 rpm over 5-8 minutes as an example in overdrive as compared with the old 5.4 L revving at 4200+ pulling the same grade with a smaller load is a big difference. I am anxious to see how my dad's ecoboost does pulling some real loads on my terrain for comparison, but so far it has seemed marginally more efficient loaded on hilly terrain in his locale than prior Ford gas engines I have owned in similar applications, but pulls a good bit better---though still not like a diesel.

John M