Just got the 684 with a nice Rhino Loader today, and it is tricky to start. The fuel needs to be set just right and it turns over for awhile and then starts, and when cold it will die. Then just re-start and it will run if you just let it idle. While it is warming up it blows blueish smoke (incomplete fuel burn). Once it warms up the smoke goes away and it starts just fine and the throttle is responsive. The dealer said it had low power, do to low compression and that might be true. Once warm and even when cold the motor runs smooth and even. I am now thinking timing, but don't know. I still need to run compression, but I have never ran compression by removing the injectors, with my truck engines you just remove the glow plugs. The other problem is the injectors look like they are pressed in and held in with a bracket. I still need a service book, since this tractor is ruff and needs to be completely rewired, lots of body work, and paint.
Cold start issues? on a International 684
- Thread starter gatordog
- Start date
- Views: 39716
Hi, as an ex IH co sve manager I know your unit well!!!
You state it is bad to start when cold, from your description I would categorise the issue as poor running when cold.
To start, the fuel stop lever must be set about 1/2 way between stop & run, if you look on the pump there is a spring capsule which the stop lever on the pump should be against for the excess fuel starting position.
Then secondly the throttle should be set at about 1/2 full speed position.
Thirdly there is a thermostart heater mounted in the inlet manifold and fed by a pipe from the injectors and fuel pump. To use the thermostart turn on the ign switch then turn key firther(against spring pressure) and hold in this position for 45 seconds, then move key to start position and crank over engine, and it should start.
The blueish exhaust smoke when idling when cold is due to some low compression and burning oil.
The low compression and oil burn is probably due to bore & ring glazing. Because as you state it's o/k when hot. 4 hours on a dealer dynamometer at full power would do it a world of good.
I am fairly confident that timing is not an issue here!!
What hours has she done ??, .& what grade and specification of oil do you use ??, also what do you use tractor for and how frequently.
The injectors are easy to remove, they are held down by a claw bracket, remove bolt & bracket, and fuel pipes and they should lift out, but may be held in by dirt between the injector and the copper sleeve it sit in , sealing is by a taper at bottom of injector body sealing on copper injector sleeve, sleeve is pressed and glued into head and should not move !!!
You state it is bad to start when cold, from your description I would categorise the issue as poor running when cold.
To start, the fuel stop lever must be set about 1/2 way between stop & run, if you look on the pump there is a spring capsule which the stop lever on the pump should be against for the excess fuel starting position.
Then secondly the throttle should be set at about 1/2 full speed position.
Thirdly there is a thermostart heater mounted in the inlet manifold and fed by a pipe from the injectors and fuel pump. To use the thermostart turn on the ign switch then turn key firther(against spring pressure) and hold in this position for 45 seconds, then move key to start position and crank over engine, and it should start.
The blueish exhaust smoke when idling when cold is due to some low compression and burning oil.
The low compression and oil burn is probably due to bore & ring glazing. Because as you state it's o/k when hot. 4 hours on a dealer dynamometer at full power would do it a world of good.
I am fairly confident that timing is not an issue here!!
What hours has she done ??, .& what grade and specification of oil do you use ??, also what do you use tractor for and how frequently.
The injectors are easy to remove, they are held down by a claw bracket, remove bolt & bracket, and fuel pipes and they should lift out, but may be held in by dirt between the injector and the copper sleeve it sit in , sealing is by a taper at bottom of injector body sealing on copper injector sleeve, sleeve is pressed and glued into head and should not move !!!
Last edited:
This tractor has been re-wired and most of those wires have been cut. I did adjust the timing from 6 degrees to 16 degrees, and it runs better, but is still hard to start when cold. I have been starting with the fuel cut off all the way on. I don't see that thermostat heater thing, and when you turn the key the starter runs when you push the clutch and will not shut off until you turn the key off. It looks like I need a new wiring harness or make my own. I don't have a separate ign switch and starter? One new problem, this machine has a Rhino loader and the hydraulic power from the remotes to the loader keeps kicking off when I try and lift the tractor with the loader. The lever on the right side pops up, and to reset I have to pull lever up to back feed the loader and then back down. Can I adjust this cut off pressure, or just use the hold down to keep the arm down? I need to drain some fluid out since the fluid level on the dipstick is way over full.
I still need to check compression, but nobody has the adaptor for this tractor. Do you know were I can buy one, dealer is clueless.
Will try the fuel shut off at 1/2 and the throttle also at 1/2 to see if that helps.
I still need to check compression, but nobody has the adaptor for this tractor. Do you know were I can buy one, dealer is clueless.
Will try the fuel shut off at 1/2 and the throttle also at 1/2 to see if that helps.
Sorry, I did not answer your questions
Don't know about the hours, that is not working.
What type of oil should I use?? I was going to run Rotella or should I go with a straight weight.
I was going to use the Tractor for clearing some brush and use the loader to move material. Was planning to add some other attachments, but I have a Massey 230 that is in better condition. Might sell the IH if I can not get the loader to work better, or remove the loader and mount on something like a JD 3020 or Ford of same size, since I can get parts and advice from the ford and JD dealers.
Don't know about the hours, that is not working.
What type of oil should I use?? I was going to run Rotella or should I go with a straight weight.
I was going to use the Tractor for clearing some brush and use the loader to move material. Was planning to add some other attachments, but I have a Massey 230 that is in better condition. Might sell the IH if I can not get the loader to work better, or remove the loader and mount on something like a JD 3020 or Ford of same size, since I can get parts and advice from the ford and JD dealers.
dieselscout80
Elite Member
I think the 684 only uses ether as a starting aid.
Gator dog !! Reading another thread I gather you have a 784 not a 684, so it will have the D246 engine.
Timing for the fuel pump should be 16degrees for both applications.
Tractors for Europe were fitted with the " thermostart" flame start device in the inlet manifold, for North America the ether start was preferred ??
Re oil I need to know the "American Petroleum Institute" API classification grade of the oil you suggest so I can better advise?
Re compression tester, any good dealer should have a universal tool which can be used or you could use a dummy injector???
It would also be useful to know if you are using a high or low sulphur diesel ???
Where abouts are you located???
Timing for the fuel pump should be 16degrees for both applications.
Tractors for Europe were fitted with the " thermostart" flame start device in the inlet manifold, for North America the ether start was preferred ??
Re oil I need to know the "American Petroleum Institute" API classification grade of the oil you suggest so I can better advise?
Re compression tester, any good dealer should have a universal tool which can be used or you could use a dummy injector???
It would also be useful to know if you are using a high or low sulphur diesel ???
Where abouts are you located???
Last edited:
art
Super Member
I would venture a guess that the tractor might have had a valve job. We have had several come into the shop that had used other make head gaskets that are thicker causing a compression loss. We removed the after-market ones and put in the factory correct steel shim gasket and everything was good!!!
" Art's" comment about too thick a gasket is very valid if unit has been overhauled.???
Now the loader operation, I presume the loader has its own bank of valves which are being fed by one of the tractors auxiliary valves.
The correct way of doing this should be to use a " high pressure carry over" HPCO to supply pressure oil to loader, bypassing the tractor valves,
Alternatively with the set up you have the stop gates on the aux valve lever (as shown in operators manual) can be modified to hold valve lever in demand so it does not kick out.
The detents on the valve levers are hydro-mechanical in operation and are best left alone. If the valve is left on demand against adead end you will overheat the hydraulic system, best way would be to fit the HPCO.!!!
Now the loader operation, I presume the loader has its own bank of valves which are being fed by one of the tractors auxiliary valves.
The correct way of doing this should be to use a " high pressure carry over" HPCO to supply pressure oil to loader, bypassing the tractor valves,
Alternatively with the set up you have the stop gates on the aux valve lever (as shown in operators manual) can be modified to hold valve lever in demand so it does not kick out.
The detents on the valve levers are hydro-mechanical in operation and are best left alone. If the valve is left on demand against adead end you will overheat the hydraulic system, best way would be to fit the HPCO.!!!
I am using AG diesel, and plan on using Rotella diesel Oil non-synthetic, I am about as South as you can get, I can't see Mexico, but you can sure smell it. There are no Good Dealers down here, most of the mechanics are High school kids that can't spell CAT if you spotted them the C and the A.
Try Messicks the hpco is listed on their parts site!!!
Tractor Parts
To me in U/K ag diesel means little ??? Is it high or low sulphur ???
Also she'll rotella is not listed for Europe, need all data off oil drum to advise!!!
Have googled rotella and find there are several different oils from full mineral to synthetic and mono grade to multigrade(s) ??? Need more input on specific oil you intend to use???
Your loader valve bank??, is it a two or three line unit (no of lines to valve bank from tractor) ??
Tractor Parts
To me in U/K ag diesel means little ??? Is it high or low sulphur ???
Also she'll rotella is not listed for Europe, need all data off oil drum to advise!!!
Have googled rotella and find there are several different oils from full mineral to synthetic and mono grade to multigrade(s) ??? Need more input on specific oil you intend to use???
Your loader valve bank??, is it a two or three line unit (no of lines to valve bank from tractor) ??
Last edited:
It has 2 lines from the remotes. If I hold the handle on the right side of the tractor and use the loader. The loader will lift the tractor with no problem, so I just need to locate one of those High pressure valves.
Also, I have looked over here for glaze busters, but no luck. Is it, glaze buster, still available on your side of the pond?
art
Super Member
When checking with a deealer have the serial number handy and look for the power beyond valve. It is relatively easy to install and will make your loader valve active at all times and free the rear remote of use.
"Gator dog' I think you miss-understood. by 2 or 3 line i am refering to what the loader valve bank requires, bit what is on the tractor ????
First att shows auxiliary valve layout including end plate which will be replaced by the HPCO. (Picture actually shows HPCO but part no's listed are for a blank end plate.??
For correct part no's refer to 2nd att
3rd att shows large plug under axle on r/hand side to be used as return port, The size is 1 5/16inches UNF thread size not spanner size ?????? Due to size of this plug most people remove it then have a local m/c shop bore it and tap it to suit local adaptors, ideally 3/4 bsp or 1 inch JIC
Regarding glaze busters ?? do you mean a tool ?? or a fluid that can be added to fuel or oil ??
First att shows auxiliary valve layout including end plate which will be replaced by the HPCO. (Picture actually shows HPCO but part no's listed are for a blank end plate.??
For correct part no's refer to 2nd att
3rd att shows large plug under axle on r/hand side to be used as return port, The size is 1 5/16inches UNF thread size not spanner size ?????? Due to size of this plug most people remove it then have a local m/c shop bore it and tap it to suit local adaptors, ideally 3/4 bsp or 1 inch JIC
Regarding glaze busters ?? do you mean a tool ?? or a fluid that can be added to fuel or oil ??
Attachments
huskerhayman
Bronze Member
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2011
- Messages
- 58
- Tractor
- IH 684
cyrush said:
Do all 684s have this? I have one but have never heard this. I do have either assist but it doesn't work and I have never used it. Mine starts great and when it gets cold I have a tank heater on it that works great. Guess I will have to look at the operators manual.
I you need the wiring diagrams let me know. I have the factory service manual and could primly get you them.
huskerhayman
Bronze Member
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2011
- Messages
- 58
- Tractor
- IH 684
Makes sense. OP: These are great tractors and you will love it. I have had my 684 for years without any problems and I have a Case IH 885 which is practically the same tractor that has over 9000 hours and the only thing that has been done to it is new sleeve o-rings and a head gasket.
This is what my 684 looked like when I bought it. The picture makes I look like it needed more work than it did.
This is what my 684 looked like when I bought it. The picture makes I look like it needed more work than it did.
huskerhayman
Bronze Member
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2011
- Messages
- 58
- Tractor
- IH 684
gatordog said:
On mine I added a power beyond plate on the end of the remote valve. I could not find one off of a 684 and IH wanted around $300 for one if I remember right. I ended up buying two valve and the power beyond plate off of an 86 series IH. On the 86 series the plate mounts on the opposite end if the valves and I had to have some oring grooves machine in it but it wasn't to expensive. I got the whole setup for about $120 off of eBay and I added one of the valves so now I have two remotes. It was well worth to time and money to not screw with tying the lever down.
I am looking for the fluid.
I went to change the oil yesterday and did not check on how much diesel and she ran dry, so it was a all day oil change. I did not want to damage my starter, so I bought one of those Mr gasket diesel fuel pumps and wired it in. Which was a good thing since the previous owner had the IGN switch wired all wrong. I have been meaning to get one of these pumps, since I have 5 diesels and my old IDI Ford Trucks only have a manuel pump, so when working on fuel system I can use this pump to save starters. Anyway, with the electric pump I discovered that the inlet fitting to the second bank of fuel filters was leaking, and is not worth repairing since the previous owner just used several layers of teflon tape to try and seal up the wore out threads. Need to get a new filter head, one that uses a good, cheap, and always available anywhere Fleetguard/fleetpride filter. I need to check today and see if the added fuel pressure will help on the cold start issues. I like this pump since if it is not on it still flows fuel, I just ran a switch and power comes from the IGN switch on the ignition terminal.
As far as the loader, I used the hold down bolt and the loader has plenty of power. No need for the HPCO, maybe later.
